Hello again, faithful rereaders and Cosmere fanatics! This week we’ll be delving into some more philosophical conversations between Dalinar and Kadash, following along as Kaladin flies Dalinar back into the Shattered Plains for some recon, watching as Shallan convinces Elhokar to let her tag along to Kholinar, and… oh, yeah. I suppose we’ll cover a little bit of Moash in here, too. If we muuuuuuust.
Aubree: You know you missed me!!!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. As usual for Part Two, there are very minor Cosmere discussions regarding the epigraphs. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar; Moash, Shallan
WHERE: Shattered Plains warcamps; Kholinar environs, Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.8.5 (8 days after our last Dalinar chapter, 3 days after the last Urithiru events); 1174.2.1.2 (4 weeks after the previous Moash chapter), around 1.9.1 (Shallan’s portion of Chapter 51 comes after the events of Chapter 50, but we’re not sure how long)
Kaladin flies Dalinar, Navani and some others back to Narak for some reconnaissance and so Dalinar can look for the madman Herald. He has no luck finding the man, but he does find that someone with a Shardblade cut open the wall to get to him, and left behind a small poisoned dart. A discussion with Kadash reveals that the ardent is wary of where Dalinar’s visions are coming from, but he does seem to be ever so slowly coming around.
Meanwhile, in self-loathing-ville, Moash and his team of parshman slaves have reached the outer edge of Kholinar. (Dun dun duuuuuuuuun…)
Shallan approaches Elhokar and convinces him to allow her to accompany the team heading to Kholinar. She plans to use her illusions to disguise the team in order to make it easier to infiltrate… but she’s also using the trip as a handy escape from her own troubled mind.
The Singing Storm
Titles
“Shash Thirty-Seven” is the room number where Taln had been … “treated” by the ardents when they thought he was a madman.
“Shash building,” he finally said, pointing absently out the window. “That one right there. Room thirty-seven. Insah ran the facility; her records will list details of the madman’s treatment….”
Alice: This goes all the way back to Chapter 38, where Dalinar suddenly realized that the “madman” who showed up with a Shardblade really was a Herald, and it just might be a good idea to talk to him.
Lyn: I feel like this was a missed opportunity to name the chapter “Shash Building,” as in… danger building. Danger is most certainly building for our heroes here, and the tension in this chapter is so thick you can almost taste it.
AA: “Full Circle” is another of the few non-quote titles. It ties back to Chapter 45, when Moash practically predicted his fate while talking to Guff. He used to be a caravaneer, then he carried bridges, and now he’s pulling a sledge. He used to work the route from Kholinar to Revolar and back, and now he’s approaching Kholinar on that same road. He used to hang out at a tavern he now passes in the suburb where they stop. The bridge crews were housed next to a lumberyard just like the one he’s sent to now. And in a few weeks, he’ll be carrying a ladder to assault the walls, instead of a bridge to cross chasms, but in both cases serving as cannon fodder.
AP: Ladder Four!
Heralds
Taln (Dependable/Resourceful, Stonewards) is the sole Herald on chapter 50, and with good reason; most of Dalinar’s effort in returning to the warcamp is centered on trying to find him, or any record of what happened to him.
Shalash (Creative/Honest, Lightweavers) is the Herald for chapter 51, which makes sense with Shallan’s activities, presenting her Lightweaving as a useful tool for the Kholinar infiltration. I’m not sure how it fits Moash, other than possibly his honesty about the situation he’s in.
Icon: Kholin Glyphpair; Not Bridge Four
We’ve got a Dalinar chapter followed by a Moash chapter, except that the latter also has a couple of Shallan scenes.
Epigraph
We also instruct that you should not return to Obrodai. We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there.
She is young yet, and—as a precaution—she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you.
This is all we will say at this time. If you wish more, seek these waters in person and overcome the tests we have created.
Only in this will you earn our respect.
AA: So… Obrodai. We have only speculation about where this might be; it could be a world we haven’t seen at all yet, or it could perhaps be part of either the Threnodite or Drominad system. My money is on “a world we haven’t seen at all yet”—but one we’ll likely see in another novella, if we see it before Dragonsteel comes out. Unlike the Coppermind article, I don’t believe “these waters” have anything to do with Obrodai. Instead, I think that phrase indicates that the persona responding to Hoid is on First of the Sun, and is challenging him to survive Patji if he wants any further communication with Autonomy. But that’s just my guess.
Stories & Songs
… the warcamps: ten craterlike circles arrayed along the northwestern edge of the Shattered Plains. From up here, it was obvious they had once been domes. The way their walls curved, like cupping fingers from underneath.
AA: I realize it’s probably not critical to the story or anything, but who built these massive domes out here? And why? They’d almost have to be from the days when Surgebinders were well-trained and powerful: well after Aharietiam, but before the Recreance. Again, just guessing. I wonder if it will ever matter.
AP: Soulcast? But for what originally?
AA: Possibly Soulcast, or possibly constructed by Stonewards, but the burning question remains: For what? I have no idea. They’re enormous, and I can’t come up with a single usage suggestion.
“No, that sail will never stand.”
“It’s not meant to be completely accurate,” Navani said. “Just a concept. My question is, can it work?”
…
In her sketchpad, he caught sight of some kind of shiplike contraption, but with the sail on the bottom.
L: I am so here for Navani’s eventual airship fleet. I can totally see her standing on deck, hands on hips, grinning as she flies them into war to provide backup for Dalinar. Aaaaaand now I want to write an “airship commodore queen Navani” fanfic.
Buy the Book
Skyward
AA: I’d totally read that! I love her designs, and I love even more that she’s so far outside the traditional thinking in her ideas. The fact that Rushu never even blinks about the ideas and just checks the maths also makes me inordinately happy. (By the way, this is another reference to the artwork at the beginning of Chapter 43.)
AP: I’m really interested in how the surges are converted into fabrials that make them accessible to a larger population. And what role the comparative technological advantage for the humans will play. The Voidbringers are used to humans with a stone age level of technology at the start of a desolation.
AA: Hmm. I wonder how much the advances in fabrial technology will balance out the lack of experienced Radiants. Obviously the numbers of the Fused overwhelm the number of Radiants, but as you say, Aubree, fabrials don’t need Radiants. Will that shift the balance of power?
What happened to a Herald’s body when they died?
L: A better question would be “What happened to their soul when they died?”
AA: That’s certainly a question Dalinar should be asking, but I personally want the answer to exactly what he asked, because I want to understand how they always appear to have the same body. What did happen to a Herald’s body when they died?
He knelt down, shooed away a cremling, and picked up a small object.
L: A CREMLING YOU SAY? I can’t help it, I’m always suspicious when one of these is called out.
AA: I know, right? ::whispers:: Where are the rest of them?
“This was supposed to be an apocalypse, but you don’t farm an apocalypse.”
L: I’m still convinced that there’s something else coming. Something worse than Odium and the Fused, and that’s what the real apocalypse is going to be.
AP: I’m with you on this one. That there is something way worse coming. The Fused are only the beginning.
AA: … Yikes?
The letters out of Kholinar—the last ones they’d gotten—were frightened, worried things. They spoke of riots, of darkness, of spren taking form and hurting people.
L: Definitely creepy, especially that last one.
Bruised & Broken
No, wait, he thought. There was one, of course. A trip to the Valley …
He barely remembered that voyage, though he could not blame that solely upon the Nightwatcher.
AA: Yeah… we’ll get to this much later in the book, but Dalinar was pretty much passed-out drunk for that whole trip.
AP: Dalinar was basically passed out drunk for large stretches of his life.
“And the things you did in conquering Alethkar?” Kadash said. “No divine mandate, Dalinar. Everyone accepts what you did because your victories were proof of the Almighty’s favor. Without him… then what are you?”
L: Kadash with the tough questions, here.
AA: This is definitely the answer to the oft-asked question of why Dalinar always gets a pass (in-world) for the horrible things he did. “Your victories were proof of the Almighty’s favor.” Nice self-fulfilling “mandate” there—you can be as horrible as you want in order to win, because as long as you win, everyone says you’re approved by the Almighty. It’s interesting to note that proving this mandate to be false is much harder on the ardents than it is on Dalinar… so far, anyway.
AP: And I wonder if people will stop giving him a pass once they realize that Vorinism is empty lies. Twenty years isn’t all that much time in world for people to just forgive & forget. And it’s only been what, 5-6 since Gavilar died and he started actively trying to be better? This definitely lays the groundwork for why no other world leaders trust him.
L: Is it really so different from “the winner writes the history books” though? Let’s face it, some truly awful atrocities have been glossed over in the past just because the people committing them happened to win the war.
AP: It is different, in as much as we readers are very susceptible to the narrative framing. Dalinar has done really objectively terrible things, but we sympathize with him because he is the protagonist. The flashbacks and scenes like this show that there very good reasons for others to not want to work with him in-world.
The ardents knew what was best for the sick—they had access to all the world’s latest research in all fields—but was it really necessary to lock madmen away like this?
L: Putting this quote here because I’m saddened at how it echoes the ways the mentally disabled were abused and tortured in our own world. I’ve toured some pretty awful asylums and learned the history of these places, and it’s worse than some of the worst fictional horror stories you could imagine.
AA: It ties into the extended discussion we’ve had of Jasnah’s childhood memory and her “lunacy” as well. The way Shallan described these chambers back in WoR sounds so much like Jasnah’s memory of a dark room; the inescapable conclusion is that the ardents were treating her for what they interpreted as madness. And yes, the descriptions make me so sad for those who were treated thus. It may have been effective, and sometimes even helpful, for a portion of their patients; but there must have been others who were driven catatonic by what is all too close to sensory deprivation.
AP: It also shows how little they actually know. I’d like to know how other cultures on Roshar treat mental illness.
The parshmen of Moash’s new sledge crew didn’t like him. That didn’t bother him. Lately, he didn’t much like himself.
L: GOOD. I hope you’re feeling like crem, you stinker.
AA: Hear, hear.
AP: So this:
“He didn’t expect or need their admiration. He knew what it felt like to be beaten down, despised. When you’d been treated as they had, you didn’t trust someone like Moash. You asked yourself what he was trying to get from you.”
…is actually pretty darn self-aware and empathetic. And I’ll throw out there again, Moash’s degree of self-hatred and self-sabotage are not signs of a healthy mind at work. He’s broken, like so many of our main characters. I expect he would have had Radiant potential if he stayed on Team Human.
“When the assault happens, you’ll be at the front, running a ladder toward Kholinar’s infamous walls.”
Moash laughed even louder.
L: Ka is a wheel, do ya ken? (Long days and pleasant nights to those who get the reference.)
AP: Full circle indeed!
A part of her knew what she was doing. It was getting harder to hide things in the back of her mind and ignore them, now that she’d spoken Ideals. Instead she was fleeing.
AA: Oh, girl. For all she faced her truths at the end of WoR, she really hasn’t accepted them. She blames Jasnah, being a Radiant, the pressure of being needed… she blames everything outside her for feeling overwhelmed, and wanting to get away. She justifies it by “helping the mission” with her ability to create disguises—and there’s no doubt that ability will help. But the real problem she has is on the inside, where she’s desperately trying to go back to burying the things that are too painful to remember. Poor child.
AP: This also relates back to:
“She’d still been telling most people that she was of the Elsecallers, like Jasnah so they wouldn’t know of her ability to become other people.”
She’s lying to others as well, for her benefit. It makes me wonder if this isn’t part of why the other spren think Cryptics are dangerous and to be avoided. Creating illusions and disguises are more “lies” but she is also using spoken lies to cover up what she has been doing in creating multiple personas.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
That variety doesn’t fly, he thought. They can raise the dark light around themselves, but it doesn’t give them Lashings. Something else. He glanced back at the one nearest him, the one hovering. But that type almost never walks. It’s the same kind that captured me.
AA: This was one of our early introductions to the multiple forms of the Fused, and the probability that there are different “orders” like the different orders of the Knights Radiant. There doesn’t seem to be a direct correlation between the abilities of the Fused and the Radiants, but there’s clearly plenty of overlap to be observed.
Also, I feel a need to point out Moash’s surprise regarding the Voidbringers’ behavior. He keeps expecting them to wipe everything out, destroying all the useful things on principle. He didn’t expect them to want to come live here, and be interested in preserving things like crops and housing. Who knew the monsters and the bogeymen needed homes and food too?
AP: This tells us a lot about what Vorins are taught about Desolations, that it’s just a total destruction. When really, there’s more to it than that. We know now that the humans are invaders, colonizers, on Roshar. And that the Fused wanted to take it back. They chose Odium as an ally, which obviously didn’t work out great for them, but this shows that despite their many resurrections/reincarnations/whatever we want to call the body possession thing they do that they still have a responsibility for their people.
They’re trying to burden the city with refugees, Moash thought. Ones that aren’t fit to work or fight anymore.
L: Gotta say, this is a great strategy. Super smart. If you’re planning on laying siege to a city, overwhelming it with mouths to feed is an excellent plan.
AP: Absolutely, and we see just a few chapters ahead that it’s super effective.
If you eliminate her, we will help cover up the disappearance, at your request.
L: Yikes. I’m still not sure what to think of Shallan working with these people, even if she’s only really doing it to know what her enemy is up to (and to get information about her brother).
AA: As a plot device, I think it’s marvelous. From an immersive perspective, though, I just hate it. She’s just not nearly clever enough to be involved with these people. She’s smart and witty and resourceful, but she’s a toddler in a rugby game compared to the Ghostbloods.
AP: She’s definitely in over her head.
Squires & Sidekicks
He was the only one who seemed truly in control of his flying. Even his men flew more like dropped rocks than skyeels. They lacked his finesse, his control.
AA: That description made me snicker. I assume they’ll get better at it, but it does make me wonder whether an actual Knight Radiant simply has better control of the Surges than his squires ever can.
L: I took it as Kaladin just being more practiced.
AA: That’s probably all it is, but these things make me ask questions!
“I long ago accepted that you weren’t mad. These days, it’s more a question of who might be influencing you.”
L: I meeeaaaaaan it’s a legitimate concern. I can’t really blame Kadash for being careful here, when this knowledge would undermine his entire religion.
AA: It’s totally legit, no matter how frustrating it might be. We know so much more about his religion than Kadash does, so it’s hardly fair to criticize him for the things he doesn’t know!
I do appreciate the work Kadash has been doing in the weeks since he and Dalinar had that confrontation back in Chapter 16. He’s contacted the people who were using the Dawnchant “key” Navani created from Dalinar’s visions, and they’ve sent him translations. He gave Dalinar the benefit of waiting until he heard back from them with validation of the translation, and he waited for that before he responded to the questions he was receiving about Dalinar from the various leaders of the Vorin church.
AP: It’s extremely legit, given what we know of the Thrill and where it comes from. Dalinar has been under the influence of bad actors a lot. His history makes him not the most trustworthy dude to take moral guidance from.
Flora & Fauna
…particularly in the face of Shallan’s assessment that they had likely hunted chasmfiends near to extinction.
L: Aww. Poor chasmfiends.
AA: Another hanging question mark… will this have a detrimental effect on some other part of the world’s balance?
Places & Peoples
They had prayed and burned glyphwards on his behalf; that was why highlords owned ardents.
L: Fascinating religion. What I find most interesting about this particular aspect is that people aren’t necessarily expected to be devout themselves, as long as they have the right people doing it for them. Seems a little like just paying lipservice as opposed to being truly devout, but I’m looking at it from an Earth perspective, not an Alethi one.
AA: It bugs me too. I can set it aside from a practical perspective, because we know how little of their belief system is supported by reality. But from the perspective of a rather religious person, it’s grating to see such a casual assumption that as long as someone else does the job properly on your behalf, you’re fine.
L: It’s like if a priest were to say, “No, don’t worry, you don’t need to actually be a good person, just do whatever you like and I’ll be good for you.” Granted, it’s not quite the same, because of this:
Even during his darkest days of war, they’d assured him that in pursuing his calling—by leading his armies—he served the Almighty.
L: Whatever your particular devotary is, adhering to it is sort of like prayer. It really is a unique system.
AA: Must. Suspend. Disbelief.
As invented religions go, it’s realistic even when it makes me grind my teeth. Given the circumstances, it’s exactly the kind of thing people would come up with. See, for example:
Everyone liked the system they had. The lighteyes got to live without guilt or burden, always confident that they were active manifestations of God’s will. The darkeyes got free access to training in a multitude of skills. The ardents got to pursue scholarship. The best of them lived lives of service. The worst lived lives of indolence—but what else were important lighteyed families going to do with unmotivated children?
AA: I… don’t quite know what I think. It’s very pragmatic, and actually does several things any “good religion” does (education, charity, service), but the first item and the last are the ones that get on my nerves. Granted, they get on my nerves in real-world situations, too, so there’s that!
AP: Except that it’s all fake. The lighteyes are absolved of all the terrible stuff they do, while being fed a fiction that the darkeyes are given “free” training and everyone is happy with the system. We know that’s not true. This is similar to narratives that were told about how slaves in the American South were “happy” being taken care of on the plantation, that it was in their best interest after all. Utter nonsense.
AA: I suspect it’s not all fake, since some darkeyes do take advantage of the training, and the ardents (both lighteyed and darkeyed) do get to study what they want. Still, “everyone liked the system” is way overstating the case, and I agree that the lighteyes don’t actually know how hard it is for many of the darkeyes to access the “free training.” Basically, the higher lighteyes and most of the ardents like the system, and those are the ones Dalinar notices because they’re the ones who can affect his life with their disapproval.
AP: If all the training were free, then Kaladin & family would not have been in the situation they were with Roshone. No need to steal spheres if you get free training in any skill, like becoming a surgeon. And yes, the system is totally a good one for the elite ruling class.
AA: There’s free and then there’s free. One of the problems with “free training” is that the person who wants to be trained still has to get to where the training is, and needs food and shelter during the training. If that stuff isn’t free, then the free training is pretty expensive. It means that a darkeyes who lives in the same city as the ardents who can train him has a good deal, but the darkeyes who lives out in the middle of nowhere, with no relatives who can help, is out of luck.
Buy the Book
The Ruin of Kings
AA: In other news, Queen Fen has agreed—in the tersest possible way—to visit Urithiru, after Dalinar reluctantly agreed to let her enter the Aharietiam vision without him. (No word on how the Stormfather felt about this!) The chapter closes with Kaladin agreeing to take someone along as a test when he flies the next highstorm to Thaylen City to open the Oathgate there. Presumably, they’ll take the Oathgate to Narak first.
“He’s asked me to fly with him above the storm to Thaylen City,” Shallan said, “to open the Oathgate there. He’s overly worried about dropping people—but if he does that to me, I’ll have Stormlight of my own, and should survive the fall.”
AA: I’m only including this here because we’re on the subject, but this is the next step in the planning. I also found Elhokar’s reaction interesting; he’s gotten really used to being surrounded by Radiant powers in recent weeks.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
Her hair was a wind-tousled mess, much of it having escaped her careful braid. Elhokar hadn’t fared much better—his hair sprayed out from his face like waxed Thaylen eyebrows. The two ardents, of course, were bald and didn’t have such worries.
AA: Heh.
Without thinking he put his hand to the side and tried summoning his Shardblade. Nothing happened.
What are you doing? the Stormfather demanded.
“Sorry,” Dalinar said, shaking his hand out. “Habit.”
AA: This makes me laugh. Poor Dalinar! I wonder if the Stormfather feels some kind of “pull” when Dalinar tries to summon a Blade.
AP: It’s definitely an interesting reaction! I wonder what sort of effects it will have later?
Pattern hummed from her skirts, and she hummed along with him.
L: I can’t help but find this unbearably adorable.
Weighty Words
“And my other Surge?” Dalinar said. “That Radiant in the vision made stone warp and ripple.”
You are not ready. Besides, that Surge is different for you than it is for a Stoneward.
AA: Obviously, I’m looking forward to learning what Tension looks like when Dalinar uses it. Most of what we see in Oathbringer is Adhesion, if I recall correctly.
Kaladin would never have been able to stay aloft as long as these did. He’d run out of Stormlight.
L: So are they just more practiced at using their powers, or is Voidlight more economical in regards to power usage than Stormlight is? Does it have to do with the Parshendi’s gemhearts, perhaps? They’re more effective “batteries” than humans are, because they’re actually native to this planet whereas the humans are aliens?
AA: There’s a quote from Szeth in the Prologue to The Way of Kings that’s relevant here:
Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most. It leaked away, the human body to porous a container. He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly.
AA: We know now that part of the problem is that Szeth was accessing Stormlight through an Honorblade, without benefit of actually being one of Honor’s Heralds. A Knight Radiant can hold it much longer, and presumably a true Herald could as well. Even for a Radiant, though, it leaks away. It seems logical that the Singer’s gemhearts would enable them to hold their light—whether Stormlight or Voidlight—in a way that humans simply can’t. (And I’m assuming that when Szeth refers to the Voidbringers, he means the Singer ancestors who fought in the Desolations, rather than the much-farther-back humans who brought the Void first.)
AP: We do see that “perfect” gemstone at the end of the book. I wonder if gemhearts are more “perfect” at storing Stormlight. Voidlight. Whatever. Or if Voidlight just behaves differently. We don’t really have enough information to say.
L: …shit. What if that perfect stone is a gemheart? Trapping an Unmade in a HEART is pretty dark if you think about it.
The interesting thing about it was not the illusion itself, but how she was powering it. … This one, however, she’d attached to a sphere inside the pouch. She was going on four hours now with the Lightweaving needing no extra Stormlight from her. … This had begun as an experiment on how she could help Dalinar create his illusory maps of the world, then leave them for him, without her having to remain in the meeting. Now, however, she was seeing all kinds of possible applications.
AA: Whatever weird mental games she’s playing with herself, it’s good to see the scholar reemerging occasionally. I’ve always liked watching Shallan experiment with Lightweaving to see what else she can do.
AP: I love power up and mechanic sequences. How Stuff Works always fascinates me, and I like that Brandon does these little peeks to give us the “rules” and set expectations for what character powers can and can’t do.
Mundane Motivations
“This is a long march from Narak and the Oathgate. I fear that by dividing our forces among Narak, here, and Urithiru, we’re increasing our vulnerability to an attack.” … Unfortunately, they would probably need this place for farming operations, not to mention the lumber. Plateau runs for gemhearts couldn’t sustain the tower city’s population forever,
AA: I call foreshadowing here. Or maybe that’s not the right word. Anyway, right now they need the resources from this area; Alethkar’s resources are being taken over by the Singers, and they haven’t figured out how to “turn on” Urithiru so they can grow food up there. I’m beginning to suspect that they won’t actually accomplish that until the second arc, and part of the struggle for the remaining two books of the first arc will be how to feed their people. It’s not an insignificant issue. Anyway, that question appears to be part of the reason Dalinar is out here, along with his need to find Taln.
AP: I think that’s very perceptive.
AA: This week, Moash doesn’t seem to have any motivation at all. He doesn’t care about his companions; he’s not particularly worried about the Fused; he isn’t bothered about his own slavery, much less the rest of the humans the Fused have taken; the thought of Kholinar under siege is a matter of indifference. The only thing that really gets a reaction from him is the realization that after all he’s gone through, he’s right back to being a slave who builds and carries large wooden objects in front of an army that doesn’t care if he dies in the first rush.
AP: There’s a lot of apathy here, and again, this is a sign of deeper issues that Moash has. His laughter and inappropriate affect at being told he is going to run ladders are big red flags. Moash makes a lot of bad decisions, but his apathy/anhedonia and executive dysfunction aren’t choices. This Moash sequence is here to give us more insight into how the Fused army works, and it’s a very effective info dump.
AA: (You learn something new every day if you aren’t careful. Turns out “anhedonia” means exactly what it looks like.)
Quality Quotations
In my painful experience, the truth may be simple, but it’s rarely easy.
And we’re done. Housekeeping note: Given one thing and another, we’re going to drop back to a one-chapter-per-week pace for a while, unless we have a really short chapter. It’s necessary for the sanity of your questionably-sane rereaders. So next week, join us for another Dalinar flashback in Chapter 52. See you in the comments!
Alice would like to point out that the Weeping has begun in the Pacific Northwest, and she is reminded that she shares a certain seasonal reaction with Kaladin. On the other hand, the Skyward tour is coming, with the need for a new cosplay, so that will be fun.
Lyndsey is out late every weekend bringing the scares, which is an excellent distraction from the fact that November is swiftly approaching and she doesn’t have an outline for NaNoWriMo yet. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree is back! She was not on a secret mission to infiltrate a city deep in enemy held territory with only a fake moustache as a disguise. There was also a goatee.
The perfect gem is pretty big (if I remember right) and Parshendi gemhearts are small enough to be very difficult to find. As poetic as it would be to trap unmade in them, I don’t think it works.
I also think “these waters” refers to the location of the avatar that’s writing (probably First of the Sun) and not Obrodai. (Obradee Obradai life goes on)
For those wondering what “anhedonia” looks like, it is the inability to feel pleasure.
Good insights, as per usual. The one thing I’ll add is that I feel Shallan is very aware of what she is doing this time in running away. While it is still unhealthy, at least she is being honest with herself about her motivations.
Sure you can farm an apocalypse, at least on Earth. The right kinds of agriculture are well able to induce war, famine, and/or pestilence, not to mention pollution and climate change, and some farming be carried out for a while even under those conditions. But Roshar gets a different kind of apocalypse. Lucky them. :-p
My understanding of the perfect gems was that they were specific items, one for each type of gem (9 or 10 depending on if they were designed specifically for the unmade or if there was one for each radiant order’s gem) So I doubt they were related to parshendi gem hearts.
Ah Dalinar… I have spent some time, within the last weeks, trying to figure why it was I seem to be unable to feel the same levels of sympathy for his character as other readers seem to. What is wrong with me? Why can’t I like him? While I can appreciate the man he is now, while I do kind of like modern-day Dalinar even if I find him cold and rigid, something is just preventing me from really liking him.
I don’t know if anyone else ever had a similar experience with a character before… The knowledge, as a reader, you are supposed to sympathize with this character, you are supposed to find him/her awesome, you are supposed to find he/she is the absolute best character within the cast and yet… you don’t.
Can anyone relate to this?
Hence, I have tried to figure out why I was reacting this way to Dalinar. Is it just the Rift? It can’t be. I have thoroughly enjoyed and loved characters within other narratives which also did awful things. After all, wasn’t I rooting for Jaime Lannister despite the fact he threw poor Bran out of the window for no other reason he saw him whore with his sister? On a scale from one to ten of pure evilness, this one sure doesn’t rank much higher than the Rift. Wasn’t I also feeling a crem-load of sympathy for Theon Greyjoy, a snivelling cowardly traitor who’s only redeeming deeds were having killed two random boys (and not Brandon and Rickon Stark, as if it made things better) and rescuing Sansa/Jeyne?
Why can’t Dalinar stir similar emotions? At least with me…
My conclusions turned out being in-line with this week’s commentaries. In-world characters love Dalinar. In-world characters are willing to give the sky in confession to Dalinar and even if the foreign leaders aren’t too keen on following his lead, I can’t say he faces anywhere near the adversity Jaime nor Theon do face. If I am to draw comparisons here, Jaime is loathed by everyone who is not a Lannister and they aren’t particularly nice people. The Kingslayer, the Oathbreaker, no one thinks much of Jaime nor his honor nor his words: he’s never been considered good at much else besides sleeping with his sister. Theon is hated, and mistrusted. Even after he saves Sansa, very few people are willing to trust him. No one certainly likes him. He litterally has to fight his own men to finally assert some leadership in order to save his sister.
That’s what has been bothering me. The fact Dalinar got away from a life of cruelty without a significant number of people thinking less of him. Granted, this chapter highlights how Vorinism has been crafted to make Dalinar’s blood-baths warranted, deserved and the “work of God”, but his years as a drunken mess out to have burdened his relationship with his closed-ones. His sons ought to have hate him, disliked him or be angry at him for how he did everything he could not to be their father. Navani should be been repulsed by this man who drowns in alcohol while not bothering with his own children. Jasnah should not think of Dalinar as “one of the greatest man on Roshar”, not after having witnessed how he treated poor Renarin, not after seeing drunk.
Nothing however happens. No one thinks less of him. No one has negative feelings towards him besides a few foreign leaders. And what also grates me is how the real victims are ignored here… How come no one made a big deal out of Adolin/Renarin losing their mother at such a young age? Why did all the attention need to be on Dalinar? It should have gone to the kids… Kids should always come first… How come kids never seem to matter in SA?
Hence, I have disliked and may keep on disliking Dalinar. Because the narrative forgives him. Because the narrative makes this forgiveness feel undeserved. Because I do not find Dalinar had enough adversity while trying to better up for me to feel sympathy for him and writing this know there are those who’ll be angrily writhing in their living rooms, screaming their heads out at how come Gepeto can’t appreciate Dalinar’s struggles. And they are right, I can’t. I just can’t.
What did Dalinar have to do to atone for how he treated his closed ones? Nothing. What did he have to do to gain back respect and leadership after being a drunk for 6 years? Nothing.
That’s what’s been bothering me with Dalinar. The voices, the PTSD, the alcohol, all of this do not work to make me feel sympathy because I still do not find he deserves Adolin/Renarin/Navani/Jasnah/Elhokar to think so highly of him. I know Dalinar is being very realistic, isn’t think much of himself: I do not blame the character but, somehow, I needed a third-person’s perspective here for the change to work.
I don’t know why, but I needed other in-world characters, and not some foreign leaders, to hate Dalinar so I could like him, if this even makes sense to those who are reading.
Now more onto this weeks chapters, I love Kadash. I love how he went through the same trauma as Dalinar, how he too has PTSD and yet he chose to deal with it in a very different manner. Instead, he chose to live a life of servitude, to atone for his deeds by becoming an Ardent. I respect this and I love him for it, for showing Dalinar’s way isn’t the only way to deal with the same hardship.
On Shallan, yeah, well, I don’t like her running away as while she does end up having her “use” in Kholinar, the fact remains she most certainly runs away. I agree she does not want to deal with herself, she blames everything, everyone but herself and decides to just stop bothering with all which ails her and go see elsewhere if things aren’t better. Yeah. This was Shallan’s most self-centered decision.
I also agree she is way over her head with the Ghostbloods. She thinks she has it under control, but she doesn’t. She never fooled them, she is not in charge: they are. And I suspect she will find this out within the next book. While I certainly do not expect a very large Shallan narrative within book 4, I still expect it will deal with our creepy friends here
Wasn’t he using Tension to rebuild the temples in Thaylen City?
So first my own impressions on the re-read. Navani fabrialness is awesomeness! Magitech for the win! Can’t wait to see what she comes up with next!
Moash is definitely filled with self-hate. I do think Moash giving up his hate to Odium will be a large obstacle to taking ownership of his actions. He needs to come to terms with his self-hate and that most of his problems in life are sourced at himself. But how can he take responsibility for those actions, if he cannot feel that self-hate and admit it is coming from himself?
Shallan’s lie about being an Elsecaller is actually a really good idea and does end up being beneficial. Having the whole world knowing what you are capable of allows potential enemies to prepare to counter such abilities. This comes up during their time in Shadesmar if I recall correctly. The fused think she is an Elsecaller, so have trouble dealing with her illusions.
I feel what the ardents are to the Alethi was drawn upon loosely from a real world religion. Now I am not saying this to get political, just how it is interesting how cultures and religions evolve over the centuries. In ages past there was a thing known as “plenary indulgence”. What this was originally intended to be was you could pray or do good actions in this world, to help loved ones who had passed on make it to heaven. Your good deeds were meant to add to theirs so they could go potentially from purgatory to heaven. This system however became corrupted. Nobility would pay off priests to pray for them, or absolve the sins of the deceased. This became a lucrative trade for the Church. This corruption eventually got revealed, and the sale of plenary indulgence became outlawed in 1567. So the idea that you could pay someone, or hire someone to give you points with the hereafter is not a new concept.
@2 whitespine
Though Shallan realizes she runs away, it is rather ironic/funny that at the same time Jasnah realizes Shallan may benefit most from going off on her own. Perhaps enabling Shallan to regain that confidence she learned when she was out on her own.
@6 Austin
I think he was using Adhesion. He was reconnecting what was broken. Restoring the bonds between the pieces of broken rock. Tension means strengthening, like turning paper rigid like steel. While Cohesion means weakening, or turning rock and steel to mud to mold. At least that was my interpretation. He could have been using both tension and adhesion in concert though I lean towards only adhesion.
@8 – I don’t think that’s how Adhesion works. There’s the problem that it requires stormlight to keep objects together. Tension requires just basic physics. Now, I’m more of the mind of your latter point that it could be a combination of the two surges.
@9 Austin
True, though the Stormfather commented that Dalinar’s is more “powerful” version “spiritual” adhesion. So he could not only be attaching them, but restoring the bonds at a spiritual level. Dalinar does remark to himself how he brings the broken stone back to what they “feel” is right, and restores the connection to how it is viewed and views itself. So that could be why it is permanent. But that is my own reasoning on the events. I understand there can be alternative thoughts.
On first read, Dalinar’s discomfort when flying puty payed to my expectations that he’d claim Jezrien’s Honorblade for his own and use it to visit foreign rulers in person. Of course, by this point it also become clear that something like that likely would have been counter-productive, given his history. And later we’ll see exactly why Dalinar’s instinct to keep well away from a new shardweapon, even one that, seemingly didn’t have any drawbacks of a dead spren, was very right and helped him to withstand the lure of Thrill.
Speaking of Autonomy’s letter – would Patji really task Hoid’s survival skills, given that as far as we know, he can’t be killed by anything short of an angry Shard, or, perhaps, Nighblood? Patji’s predators and poisoneous creaters/plants seem rather tame by comparison… Also, can Autonomy maintain several Perpendicularities simultaneously, or was the “closing” of Taldain caused by her moving her one Perpendicularity to the First of the Sun? In fact, does her creation of the multiple avatars provide the way around the fact that per WoB a Vessel’s mind is finite and therefore can be aware of only so much of it’s Shard’s investiture – which is present on all the worlds of the Cosmere created by Adonalsium?
I am not sure that the domes on the Shattered Plains were created after Aharietam – why couldn’t they have been there before the battle? I mean, it seems like the whole of it are the remains of a massive city, covered by crem, yet the modern Rosharans, even scholars are ignorant of it’s prior existence. This, to me, signifies the almost complete loss of knowledge and history during the later Desolations.
Yay, magitech! They only need the means to defend these ships from the flying Fused. Aluminium canon? Humans badly need technology to make up for the crazy Heralds and few, untrained Radiants!
The question of feeding people during apocalypse is likely to become pressing even if/when they manage to restore Urithiru to it’s full function. We know that all countries that we have heard from are facing shortages of food due to the disruption of agriculture by the Everstorm, parshmen leaving, war, during the planting season. Not to mention all the refuges streaming from Alethkar… In Alethkar itself, the Fused are careful with the real estate, but due to the above they’ll also need to decide what to do with unproductive/extra humans.
I very much enjoy Kadash and hope that he’ll do what I initially thought Amaram would and provide means of cooperation with the Vorin church, without necessarily agreeing with Dalinar about whether Honor was a god and whether he is truly dead. IIRC, Kabsal had some interesting things to say about Vorin theology that might make it possible to see Dalinar’s revelations as not false, but a test. And yes, Kadash is right to doubt the origin of the visions too, given that Dalinar was, indeed, under Odium’s influence for a long time and still is very vulnerable to him.
Speaking of Vorinism – again, I’d like to see how the whole training in skills, etc., works somewhere other than a deep, rural part of Sadeas’s princedom. I imagine that even for those with access to it, proper apprenticeships are still preferrable. IIRC, it was mentioned somewhere that spearmen get their initial training in the temples too?
I also don’t find religion that is more focused on form and sees success as the sign of heavenly approval to be unrealistic. Roman piety, for instance, had nothing to do with being a good person, but with meticulously observing worship and yes, success in life was seen as a stamp of divine approval. It is not much different in Calvinism, I think. As to having somebody else pray for you – how about the automatisation of appeasing the gods via prayer wheels?
Concerning the Fused holding voidlight so well – when they lash Moash a couple of times during OB, _that_ wears off rather quickly. So, IMHO their gemhearts hold investiture much better than human bodies. In fact, it would have been necessary for all the animals who rely on their spren symbionts for survival to be able to hold stormlight between highstorms and during the long Weeping – otherwise the skyeels would be unable to fly, the huge crustaceans would be crushed by their own weight, etc. Voidlight may or may not be “stickier” than stormlight, but I am certain that Venli will be able to hold stormlight for weeks at a time too.
And yea, given what humans working for the Fused look like in the vision of Aharietam, Moash’s
@5, Gepeto,
“Nothing however happens. No one thinks less of him. No one has negative feelings towards him besides a few foreign leaders. And what also grates me is how the real victims are ignored here…”
I think this is maybe where the difference comes. To me, the real victims aren’t his family. For his family, they are his family. That means something on Roshar. Elkohar, Jasnah, and Navani are also “true royalty”. He’s not actively harming them at all. His sons are a different story. He never abused them – neglected his sons, for sure – but never abused them, at least not more than neglect can be abusive. (Not sure how to convey “it” otherwise, not making light of neglect). Renarin and Adolin aren’t Shallan and her brothers.
As for everyone else, the Blackthorn is honorable warrior who did everything he did for the good of Roshar, who was “broken” by the death of his wife. He was a force of nature on the battlefield and anyone who happened to get caught in his way suffered the consequences. It’s the Alethi way. Ultimately, we – the reader – know that the narrative is wrong, that the appearance is a lie, and that Dalinar suffered for it. His relationship with Evi was his struggle to change. Readers can respect that notion, even if he failed (and needed magical help).
Lastly, for your comparison of Roshar to Westoros, I think they’re too dissimilar to compare. At least in Roshar, trying to be a good person means something to the narrative. In Westoros, that doesn’t matter. Grimdark is all about people at their lowest and most vile or amoral. You root for your favorites to survive, not for happiness.
Have you ever read “Mistborn: The Final Empire?” I imagine that the Lord Ruler’s relationship to the skaa is how the common “folk” saw the Blackthorn.
Before it is all said and done, I think the Dysian Aimian will take an active role in the fight against the Fused. I do not think they will remain merely watchers. Do the Dysian Aimian know of the Cosmere byond Roshar. Do they know about Adinalsium and the 16 Shards?
When it comes to the Ghostbloods, I agree with Alice and Aubrey – Shallan is playing checkers whereas the Mraize is playing chess.
The concept of ardents being the spiritual/religious conscious of Brightlords and Brightladies is akin to rich people paying poor people to take their place in the draft during the Civil War.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
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@11 Isilel
I wonder if Hoid jumping into a chasmfiend’s mouth was him testing the extent of his healing in preparation for Patji? Would be funny if it was lol.
I agree regarding Kadash. It is presented very well that his concerns are warranted. Just because Dalinar sees them, and they were confirmed to be true, does not mean they should still necessarily be taken at face value. Add to that that Kadash is having a crisis of faith and friendship at the same time, and the pain he is going through is palpable.
Good points about the Fused and voidlight. That would be an interesting pro/con for them. Personal use is almost unlimited, but using on others brief. Would give them more personal utility with their abilities vs a radiant despite not having as drastic uses.
@12 Keyblazing
Comparing Dalinar to the Lord Ruler is a very interesting parallel. We do find out later that a lot of what the Lord Ruler did was warranted (in reality in some cases, in his mind in others at least). So although not wholly good, the Lord Ruler was not as wholly bad as we originally thought. Just like although not wholly bad, Dalinar was not as wholly good as we originally thought.
@13 AndrewHB
The Dalinar vision where there is a pile of burning cremlings could indicate in the past they took an active role. Their help with Lift could also indicate leanings toward Team Honor. I am very curious to see their combat capabilities considering one could take out two fledgling Radiant Skybreakers.
Another good example (rich using the poor to dodge the draft)
HAven’t finished the comments. Or even the reread proper. However I wanted to interject briefly to point out ANOTHER thing about Moash the foil. I have started rereading The Way Of Kings. And in an Early Chapter, Like Chapter 2 or 3 I believe. Kaladin says a line that Moash will say later if he hasn’t already. “There was a freedom in not having to care.”
Just thought it was worth pointing out.
They fly to the warcamps, not to Narak, which they could simply reach by Oathgate.
The domes are probably protection against the storms.
Gepeto @5 – I think one of the things Sanderson is doing with OB is showing up just how deeply flawed Vorinism is. Aside from giving us a look “behind the curtains” as it were, so that we see more of what’s behind the stories and legends, he’s showing us that they really believe(d) that as long as you followed your Calling, you were just fine. Add to that, their traditions tell them that being a fighter is The Best Thing Ever and will get you the most honor after you die, and it really makes a lot of sense that within Alethkar Dalinar gets a pass for pretty much anything he has ever done. It’s hard to put ourselves in their mindset, especially regarding attitudes toward children, because for most of us, their entire set of priorities is really hard to internalize.
Austin @6 – I assumed he was using Adhesion to stick the stones back together the way they saw themselves. I don’t recall seeing him do anything I’d recognize as Tension yet. But I could be wrong.
scath @7 – Yeah, I thought about bringing up indulgences in the discussion, but we were already waxing long-winded, and I didn’t want to wrestle with it at that point.
Isilel @11 – SO MANY QUESTIONS about Autonomy. We keep getting little hints, and all they do is give us more questions!! Good ones, though.
Also, of course you’re right that the domes could have been built before Aharietiam, but I think it would have to have been a LONG time before. Those last Desolations came so close together that humanity was struggling to survive and retain any form of civilization. I can’t imagine any reason they’d need such large structures when they had so few people. (Not that I can figure out why they’d need such large structures anyway…) I placed it after Aharietiam because I wasn’t sure even the remnants we see could have survived for 5000 years. Maybe they could, though; I mean, we’ve got things like the pyramids, so why not?
@19 Wetlandernw
No problemo. I think another parallel is between sects of Catholicism and Christianity? This is hazy recollection so if I am totally off base I apologize in advance and hope I do not offend anyone. Wasn’t there a dividing line between iconography (Christ on the cross for instance) and the involvement of the priesthood? That once upon a time all services were in latin, which the common folk did not know, which lent the practice an air of mysticism. While another sect felt the people should feel more involved and thereby reduced the need of priests, or authority. I could be speaking of a hodgepodge of religions, and representing them incorrectly, but hopefully what I am recalling is at least slightly accurate. If so, I see it paralleled with Vorinism trying to remove the mysticism of the Church by having the ardents become property of the lighteyes, but at the same token increasing the involvement of the priesthood much like with the Steel Ministry in Mistborn. It is interesting to see how Brandon portrays how such a shift would affect the society it is part of.
(To elaborate on the background I draw upon, I was raised catholic, went to catholic elementary school, then catholic highschool, and finally a jesuit college. I took all the standard religion courses, and history courses, so that is where this hazy recollection is coming from. Ultimately I decided for myself I am agnostic/atheist. I understand the definition of both, but still feel I am an amalgam of both.)
@20 Which Scism? There have been a few. While the Catholic/Protestant split is more recent. We cant forget about the earlier split between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. And since I am not a religious history scholor I have only a passing knowledge of the history. I am by no means an expert.
@21 BenW
That is the problem with my hazy recollection, I could be merging multiple schisms lol. A quick google (so I apologize if I do not do it proper justice) seems to indicate the separation that resulted in the roman catholics and the eastern orthodox catholics regarding iconography and latin. I believe there is another instance, but will need to do some digging to be sure.
edit: the catholic/protestant could also apply regarding the papal authority and the apostolic succession (bishops, priests, and deacons). Protestants do no consecrate specific people into office, and accept that the priesthood can be transferred to any believer. Sounds a lot like the ardents after the Hierocracy.
Re: Patji – I REALLY need to read all of Arcanum Unbounded.
I had to go look up WoB and would have preferred to get this knowledge in-book. My bad.
@5: I think Dalinar’s family may have a much different reaction to him by the time they read the in-world Oathbringer.
@7: Moash giving up his pain and hate to Odium is when I lost hope for him as a character. I don’t see how, once you give that up to Odium and you’re basically his, you can take it back without getting destroyed by him or the Fused. Can he just say “I’m good, I’ll take responsibility for my life again, thanks bye.” They’ll just let him go? And what, given Moash’s apathy to life and to himself, would ever spur him to make such a choice? Brandon probably has ideas though…
Shallan’s self-deception and avoidance just annoys me. Yes I understand why she’s doing this, that she cant just reveal truths to herself at the end of WoR and have immediately accepted them in OB…but I hate it. I don’t know, I just cannot accept irrational thinking / behavior in other people. I have always found that difficult. Also, she is a “kite flying in a hurricane” when it comes to the Ghostbloods, to quote Mr. White from 007’s Sceptre. But do you know who could help? Jasnah. But she doesn’t want Jasnah’s help because she’s so grown up now and able to take on everything, when she’s actually completely overwhelmed…argh I hate being inside her mind.
Current Vorinism always looked like Catholicism post-eastern orthodox split pre Luther and his 93 questions to me. There are fundamental differences surely, but the portrayal of the fictional religion mirrors the real world one enough to be easily recognized by multiple posters. Dalinar gets so much positive reinforcement for monstrous deeds that it’s frankly amazing that he was able to change at all.
Re: religion – To me, some aspects of Vorinism sound like Europe in the late middle ages where powerful/wealthy families did send their second or third son to become a “cleric,” partly in order to not dilute the patrimony too much and partly to have someone to pray/be religious on their behalf. Another parallel is that the children of serfs and members of lower societal levels who showed promise were given opportunities to become literate and/or learn a skilled trade – over generations, these individuals contributed to the rise of the merchant/middle class that in turn paved the way for the Renaissance. And like the situations our reviewers described, it’s not accurate to say “everyone liked the [medieval] system” but it’s also false to say that no one succeeded in rising above the “station” they were born to.
We know that medical/surgical training wasn’t free in Lirin’s case, but we can’t jump to the conclusion that training in other fields wasn’t free – we don’t know that; we don’t even know about other surgeons beyond Lirin. Many societies have apprenticeship models where a person “earns their keep” while learning their trade, then stays enough years to “work off” the cost of their “tuition;” in fact, some very smart people think this kind of career development model might develop again in the near future here in the US – it’s already somewhat in place in our armed services.
For humans, Alethi society seems to align better with the medieval model than with the South in the US pre-Civil War, but that’s just my opinion (I was in medieval studies in grad school, so my mind trends that way).
It was an entirely different matter with the parshmen, who were true slaves.
Hmmm… maybe Moash always saw himself as if he were a parshman, at least subconsciously? He didn’t know it, but apparently he’d been given one of their names. I really want to know about his parents – how, if at all, they raised him and how/when they died.
Regarding the Fused and Voidlight, the epigraph for Chapter 80 says this: “Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power.”
I believe that the Fused Invest directly through Odium or BAM – they don’t need to draw Voidlight from a gemstone, they just… access it, like they’re always within a perpendicularity. It makes sense: a Singer’s body is taken over by a Cognitive Shadow (‘Fused’ refers to a Dawnsinger Shadow inhabiting a body, but is there a name for the Shadows themselves?), the Dawnsinger Shadow DawnShadow is Connected to Odium, and Odium is Connected to the Spiritual Realm. Maybe Brandon’s just being coy, but I’d have expected to see Voidstones in use by now if they were necessary – I think any Void-ish gemstone we have seen or will see is a captured enemy, either Unmade or DawnShadow.
I suspect that the Heralds are similarly Connected to the Spiritual Realm through Honor, and wouldn’t be surprised if a Radiant’s progression, in part, increases their Connection to Honor until full Radiants can Invest directly through him like the Fused can with Odium.
@13 AndrewHB
@16 scath
It’s been a while since the last time I read Edgedancer, but IIRC Arclo implied that even NALE would think twice about tussling with him. Something along the lines of ‘if he knew it was me, he’d be keeping a wide berth.’ Maybe he only said that about Radiants, not necessarily the Heralds, but that still says a lot about how formidable the Dysian Aimians must be if even full-fledged Radiants wouldn’t want to cross them.
Great chapters and recap as usual. And THANK YOU for going back to one chapter per week. Two is hard for me to keep up with.
My favorite thing with Dalinar flying is getting to see him actually be afraid of something. (Not that I’d react differently in the same situation, but he’s usually so in control!) I hope he gets that more under control by the time Navani gets her airship fleet assembled.
So, the whole concept of divine mandate for rule I see as being something more of the ardentia than something that Dalinar ever seems to have worried about. He was all about just taking the stuff and such (as he commented to Gavilar in an earlier flashback). He never seemed to worry about whether it was good or right for them to conquer Alethkar.
Mad for Moash… he’s in a spot. And he put himself there. And I wish the ladder running had done him in. Because Elhokar is actually trying. And Shallan is helping while not really being honest with herself. The Ghostbloods are going to gobble her up one of these times. You shouldn’t play against someone as skilled as Mraize unless you’ve done a lot more traveling and playing of games
@12: I didn’t mean to infer Dalinar has been mistreating his sons in the same ways Lirin has been mistreating his children. I find abuse can take many forms and while it is undeniable Lirin’s treatment of Shallan is far worst than Dalinar’s casual abandonment of his own children, I would still argue neglect does count as mistreatment. Putting ourselves within modern days, children living with an alcoholic father who spends most of his waking moments drunk would be removed from the household by the social services, even if the father is not, technically, violent with them.
Hence, Dalinar did neglect his children. He did not physically harmed them, but still neglected them. As such, I do consider there are to be named within the innocent victims of Dalinar’s behavior not to forget the fact they did loose their mother, because of him. They don’t know this, but Dalinar remains responsible for his sons losing the one parent who actually gave a care about them, especially Renarin. Adolin, at least, could count on Dalinar paying attention to his fighting skills. Renarin had Navani and Jasnah, but still…. It is hard to accept they didn’t arbor any negative feelings towards their father growing up.
On a side note, perhaps my Westeros analogy was ill-chosen. As I said, I have been given this some amount of thoughts, so I reflected on characters I feel sympathy for despite them having done awful deeds. Why do I feel sympathy for those characters? What’s different than with Dalinar?
That’s when I realized other characters aren’t well thought of within their respective narrative whereas Dalinar is. Granted, foreign leaders do not like nor trust him, but those perspectives are scarce within Oathbringer.
Another closer example would be Dalinar’s narrative within WoK. We all know the tale of how Brandon’s initial draft had Dalinar be confused about his visions, not knowing if he should trust them or not. We all read how this initial draft didn’t work out because the internalization of Dalinar’s conflict was hard to follow and lacked pacing. To resolve the issue, Brandon took one part of Dalinar’s inner monologue, he externalized it and had Adolin offer a contradicting viewpoint. I love the fact Brandon chose to do this (and not just because it transformed Adolin from a minor supporting character to a main character) because those viewpoints gave me a perspective I needed to read.
Therefore, I feel part of my current struggles lie with the lack of an outside perspective to criticize Dalinar’s behavior, to not worship him. Sure, we have Fen and some of the foreign leaders offering those views, but their voices are not strong enough.
By saying this, I also do not mean to infer there is something wrong with the narrative, I merely mean to attempt at explaining why I seem to struggle so much with Dalinar’s character when others aren’t.
@19: I understand and I do agree with everything you say, but I will admit, in all humility, I struggle internalizing Alethi in general and Dalinar in particular set of priorities especially when it comes to the children. As I said, I have come to realize I perhaps needed third person’s perspective on Dalinar, I perhaps needed another viewpoint than the ones we have gotten so far. The reverse of the medal: it might be I needed to read it to feel sympathy for Dalinar, it might be I needed to hear of characters resenting how he treated his closed ones.
So, in all humility, I will admit not having succeeded at feeling sympathy for Dalinar. Not yet anyway. My feelings can always changed. I started up hating Moash and now I do have a lot of sympathy for him.
@23: Of course, the story is not over yet, hence we can expect future developments though it is near impossible to figure out what will be relevant and what will not. I will however say my hopes are for Adolin to react negatively to the truth. I certainly didn’t think it was a hazard Brandon made sure Adolin would have a “reason” to speak of his own recollection of his mother’s death. Why have the scene if it isn’t to serve some ulterior motives?
I could be wrong, but I do think it may foreshadowed some future development where Dalinar’s actions are being put into another light. Then, I might get my third person’s perspective.
I agree with you about Shallan. A few weeks ago, I mentioned how annoyed I was with her immature behavior. Hence what you say strikes true to me: Jasnah could help Shallan only if Shallan thought she could use help.
RE: Domes on Shattered Plains
My impression from Words of Radiance was that the entire Shattered Plains used to be a single city. I’ve assumed it was one of the ones that would be revealed via Cymatics, but was unrecognized. This would also put is long before Aharietiam.
Interesting to see so many comments about how Shallan shouldn’t try to “play against” Mraize because he’ll win.
First of all, she’s doing fine. Second, they are not opposed. Mraize was uncaring, not malicious (with respect to Shallan). and I think he has come to respect and even feel affection for her. He’s still a dangerous and murderous person with concealed and potentially disastrous motivations of his own, but he isn’t trying to hurt Shallan and would probably be reluctant to do so (in my estimation).
@Gepeto
What about Kadash? He certainly doesn’t look at Dalinar with favor, at least not in OB. His views and by extension the views of the Ardentia aren’t a strong enough counterpoint to the admiration Dalinar recieves from his family and the Alethi in general?
The craziest thing about Shallan is that sometimes she’s heroic despite herself. She avoids one responsibility by taking on another. Lucky for team Human, if she’d stayed in Urithiru and did the responsible thing then Adolin, Kaladin, and Gavinor would have joined Elkohar in death and we would have no idea that there’s a potential double agent among the Unmade.
Re: Family and neglect
Dalinar mistreated his sons due to negligence. That is a fact. But as egregious as that is there are a few mitigating factors. One, Daddy Dalinar has always been a distant figure in the lives of his children. Adolin got a bit more of his time due to his soldierly potential but it was never much. With Evi propping up his image and the rest of Alethkar hailing him as a hero it could be argued that they never really knew the man. After Evi died Dalinar was obviously broken; that grief connected him to his sons despite the fact that they probably never really talked about it. Two, though Dalinar might have been distant his family surely was not. They didn’t get the love from their father that all children are entitled to but they were not mistreated in any other aspects of their lives. Dalinar’s behavior would have posed much more of a problem had it been just them, if Dalinar were their only source of familial love and support. He had a good PR staff and wasn’t around enough to overturn their good work.
@30 – I reckon the fact that Mraize does not see Shallan as a threat – that they are not opposed, as you say – is the only reason “she’s doing fine.” Otherwise she’d be taken out in a hurry.
Lirin is Kaladin’s father. Shallan’s father is called Lin.
You know you’re a Sanderson fan when:
I was reading an article today on Selena Gomez entering dialectical behavior therapy, and immediately thought to myself: Shallan could really use this. Actually, all of our broken radiants could.
EvilMonkey @31 – Not to speak for Gepeto, but… Kadash doesn’t disapprove of Dalinar because of his horrendous deeds or his treatment of his family; those are perfectly acceptable to a soldier-cum-ardent. His disapproval stems solely from Dalinar’s claim that the Almighty is dead, and that’s a very different thing. He’s only upset that Dalinar is rejecting some of the basic tenets of Vorinism.
It occurs to me that part of Kadash’s reluctance to accept Dalinar’s position is that it also makes his own position tenuous; if Dalinar is right that the Almighty is dead and Vorinism is screwed up, all the butchery that Kadash did as one of Dalinar’s elites is also meaningless and invalid. Dalinar is not only undercutting the religion, he’s undercutting the entire meaning of life for the Alethi people. (Sounds a bit like the Wandersail story, doesn’t it? I don’t think that’s accidental.)
I don’t believe there’s anything in the text that implies that Lirin studied under the ardentia to became a surgeon. From the text it feels like he went to Kharbranth; it has been some time since I read The Way of Kings but I don’t think the ardentia controlled the education facilities there.
I don’t believe Lirin ever brings up just sending Kaladin to study under the ardents in Alethkar to become a surgeon; it might not be an option he considers will give Kaladin the education he requires.
I just want to take this opportunity to commend how well Tor.com has done with Sanderson rereads and previews. In contrast, the Skyward preview release on Underlined is a disaster. The website is frequently down. And they append the new chapters each week to the main article instead of making them a separate page, so you have scroll down to find where you left off. It is shockingly amateurish for a website supposedly made by a big-5 publisher.
@30: I think Alice explains it best: Kadash’s critics towards Dalinar are with respect to his claims the Almighty is dead which, if true, invalidates the blood baths he willingly took part into. If I were to put myself within Kadash’s shoes, I would have spent years trying to reconcile myself with my actions at the Rift. Hence, finding out, once I have finally reached peace, I now need to deal with every battle I ever took part into as those too weren’t moral would be a shock. I would fight with all my might to refute those claims. Therefore, Kadash serving as the counter viewpoint for Dalinar’s recent views on Vorinism works.
He doesn’t, however, as Alice pointed out, serves as a counter viewpoint for how Dalinar chose to deal with his family.
On Dalinar and his children: No one will argue Adolin/Renarin missed out on material needs. No one will argue they starved nor worried over their parents abilities to meet their primary needs (eating, lodging), neither did they have to angst over their house’s financial situations (such as Shallan).
Adolin/Renarin lived in luxury. No one will deny this.
They also had an uncle, an aunt and two cousins. They had a mother, but she died when they were young. They had a father, but he neglected them. When we put it this way, it is true, Dalinar’s neglect seems small and insignificant. After all, what is it to two boys if their father isn’t caring much for them? They have other family members, they have money, they have everything else… So, does money really buy everything? We know it doesn’t…
Truth is we have no idea how involved Navani/Gavilar/Jasnah were in raising the boys. We do know Jasnah, at the very least, was very close to Renarin. We know Navani/Jasnah made sure Adolin had his lessons though overseeing formal education is not the same as providing love and emotional support. Still, I will argue the narrative isn’t clear on how involved Navani/Jasnah really were.
The narrative is however very clear on the scars both boys carried through their adult years. Renarin’s inability to choose a path for himself due to his refusal to admit he wishes to be a scholar as it would mean not being the soldier he believes he needs to be for his father to finally start paying him attention is one massive scar. True, Dalinar is a better father to Renarin, now, but Renarin is still battling with those years of neglect as he still struggles to accept where his strengths really lay. Adolin’s inability to see worth in his own self, constantly finding himself the lesser man, especially next to his father, combined with his tendencies to drown himself in work to avoid having to deal with emotional backlash is also easily traceable to how Dalinar made his love of him conditional to his abilities to meet his expectations. The one flashback where 15 years old Adolin asks his father if he would come see him fight, Dalinar not being pleased at having been cornered into saying “yes” was rather telling: to Adolin eyes nothing he ever did was good enough to meet Dalinar’s expectations. His father’s neglect surely contributed. Even to this day, adult Adolin literally struggles to be his own man: his entire monologue within Part 4 can be resumed in “I don’t know what I want nor why I want it, all I know is I am not this man my father thinks I am, but if I am not this man, then who am I?”.
Hence, while the narrative isn’t clear on how much emotional support the boys got from their extended family, it is clear on the problems their father’s neglect has caused within their adult self. Seeing this, I was surprised no other family members called Dalinar out for it. Granted, no one would have picked up Adolin’s issues (he keeps them to himself and everyone thinks Adolin is so strong he has no issues worth talking about), but they would have known about Renarin. They would have known how Dalinar rejected this son from birth.
@34: LOL. Sorry. I mixed up the names.
@36: Yes, this is how I see it. Kadash is not offering a counter-viewpoint to how Dalinar treated his family members. I understand, as EvilMonkey puts, how it came the boys idolize their father so much (thank you Evi for having contributed to the glorification of house neglect), but I find it harder to internalize why Navani/Jasnah/ELhokar didn’t see it. Or chose not to see it.
Both Adolin and Renarin are adults now and yet they still struggle internalizing how they were raised. It always saddened, narrative-wise, Dalinar’s trauma is deemed more important, so that too is the counter-point I have been missing. Maybe it is just a by-product of OB being Dalinar’s book, but I struggled to accept his difficulties in accepting his past seemed more important than the lasting sequels his sons carry for how he treated them.
It could however be, as Gaz pointed out, Oathbringer, the in-world book, will shed some much needed light onto Dalinar’s past thus allowing his sons to finally see their father for the man he has always been.
This makes me wonder if it ever crossed Dalinar’s mind the whole truth might damage his relationship with his sons… Does he even realize how they worship him? Does he see how his relationship with Adolin solely relies on his son admiring him and wanting to meet his expectations? Can he foresee what will happen once he break the illusions and tell his own sons: “I have burned your mother. My intentions weren’t for her to die, but they definitely for every single living soul in the Rift to burn alive.”.
So does Dalinar realize this could change everything when it comes to how he relates to his sons? And do we think it will or will the boys both be grown-up enough to internalize it and forgive their father on the spot?
Hence, this narrative may not be over… though it is hard to predict what will become a plot point and what will not.
Little is know on book 4 besides Eshonai is the flashback character, Venli will be one of the focus character and Dalinar is taking a step back which means he will not be a focus character within this book. Seems like there are a few open spots up there within the primary/secondary/first tertiary characters: things could shuffle quite a bit for book 4 or not. I can’t wait for the SA4 updates!
So first I am posting to test that I can post this link to a youtube video that discusses anxiety, ptsd, dissociative disorder, bipolar, autism and so on in movies because I thought it was interesting, but want to make sure this post will show before I go through the trouble of writing all my other comments only to find it not showing because of the link. I will edit once it shows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WH7A2v7OU
I found the portion where the psychologist discusses anxiety/ptsd concerning Tony Stark in Iron Man 3 very interesting in view of Shallan, and Autism concerning Rain Man (he points out for instance that the information was limited at the time of the movie, and since then have shown that autism is a spectrum) in view of Renarin.
@23 Gaz
That is a great point regarding Moash as well. Not only having the emotions be absent causes Moash unable to come to terms with them, but also Odium will actively take action to prevent this from happening so he won’t lose a very powerful tool.
As to Shallan, I really liked how the video link I posted took scenes from Iron Man 3 that mirrors Shallan quite well, and to hear the psychologist discuss what he is going through.
@24 EvilMonkey
Good points. That is very true regarding Dalinar. The path of least resistance for him would have been to just continue as he always did as the Blackthorn. Despite this, even before the Rift, we see glimmers of the man he could one day be. Dalinar’s actions are his own, but there were definitely many influences (Alethi Culture, Gavilar, The Thrill) that most definitely pushed and channeled him towards a certain path. I think that he begins to resist this, accepts responsibility and then overcomes it speaks miles to his character. I like how Brandon juxtaposed Dalinar’s two extremes, but at the same time gave us tastes of what lied beneath (his goodness under his ferocity when young, his rage under his honor when he is old).
@25 aggie1
Also excellent parallels. Brandon is an amazing world builder, finding ways to incorporate all of this in his books.
So I will respond here, and also repost the information in response to the later comment, but Lirin learned from another surgeon in the nearest town of any size. It is mentioned in Way of Kings page 156
“Kal felt a spike of excitement. Kharbranth? That was in an entirely different kingdom! Kal’s father had traveled there as a courier, but he hadn’t trained there as a surgeon. He’d learned from old Vathe in Shorsebroon, the nearest town of any size.
@26 MoweeWaui
Interesting thoughts on the Fused and Voidlight. I tentatively agree, though I think there is still too much mysterious about the function to lean too much in favor of your theory. Regarding the Heralds, it has been confirmed via WoB, that the honorblades when Honor was alive gave the Heralds a direct link to Honor to fuel them. So think unlimited soulcasting, unlimited gravity, unlimited division and so on. Makes you wonder what greater beings are at Odium’s beck and call that the Heralds with such power could still be killed. When they show up I have a feeling we will see a full on desolation.
Very true. Can’t wait to see the Sleepers in action! :)
@30 Carl
Welllllll, they are currently aligned because it works for Mraize. He is giving her assignments that she would want to do anyway, so he gets to use her without resistance. He knows her allegiance to Jasnah. He is dropping breadcrumbs to get her to ultimately join them, but also use her along the way. If however she were to take an action that could harm him or the ghostbloods goals, I could see things changing quite suddenly and dramatically.
@32 Gaz
I just read your comment, looks like great minds think alike :)
@36 Wetlandernw
I am not quite sure if that is Kadash’s motivation honestly. If he saw the butchery that he did as ok because of the Almighty, then he would not have left Dalinar’s Elites and joined the Ardentia. In my opinion he was seeking to atone for his actions through service. Now the religion he joined may condone Dalinar’s actions, but that does not necessarily mean Kadash himself condoned it. Why else would he comment about how he is glad Dalinar is no longer the man he was? I think if there is a selfish part of Kadash (which realistically everyone on some level is selfish, as one must think of oneself in some capacity to survive in this world at all, just the level just varies.) then it is if the Vorin religion is false, then his work to atone for his actions would be false. At least that is my reading of it.
@37 LordNarvi
As I mentioned earlier in this post, Lirin did not learn from the Ardentia nor Kharbranth. He learned from another local surgeon from another town of some size. He only visited Kharbranth as a courier. He is sending Kaladin there to get the education he never had.
Speaking of Dalinar’s children: both of Dalinar’s children are totally spoiled, selfish and self-concerned brats, who lived in luxury, who never knew what responsibility and hard work are, who owe everything they have in life to Dalinar. In comparison, Dalinar at their age is a battle-hardened warrior, Renarin is a whiny girl who puts his non-existing problems above everything else and Adolin is a grown-ass lazy moron who cares only about girls and fashion magazines. They never worked to earn anything. Daddy gave it to them at silver plate. Dalinar earned everything he has now by himself. Of course, book narrative doesn’t focus on their traumas, because they don’t have any traumas. Dalinar treated them the way fathers are typically supposed to do with their children in traditional Alethi culture, at least at their dahn. His only flaw is being too soft with them now, especially with Renarin.
@41, lordruler – much like your namesake, you really need to chill out. I know exactly why you’re saying this, but seriously, calm down. Let it go.
@42
I’m saying this, because this is truth written in books. What’s wrong? Renaris is not a whiny girl? But he whines like a girl in every chapter he’s in. You would not see opinions like this too often, but this is because people don’t want to voice it loud and being downvoted or insulted by crazy fans of these characters. I don’t care. Everything I say is approved by textual canon.
I’m chill, dude, don’t worry.
Growing up isn’t easy regardless of circumstances. There will be scars. Even the best of parents make mistakes that children will carry into adulthood. This isn’t to excuse Dalinar; the evidence suggests that he was a terrible husband and a distant father at best. But evidence also suggests that Adolin and Renarin didn’t have the worst childhood ever as well. Despite their issues they are remarkably well adjusted people, both from the standards of royal children and by the standards of having one neglectful parent and another lost at an early age. Evi’s early involvement provides a foundation and Navani/Jasnah maintained that foundation throughout the boys’ adolescence. As for why they don’t call out Dalinar for his bad behavior, I’m not certain they or any other Alethi saw Dalinar’s behavior as remarkably damaging. In our world with our cultural imperatives we definitely see how damaging his behavior is potentially to his children but we are talking about Alethi culture. When you rail against Dalinar you are really railing against Alethkar and their cultural norms. Dalinar has been described as the most honorable man in Alethkar even before his visit to Nightwatcher. It very well could be that Dalinar is the best father figure Alethi have to offer or close to it.
@28 there are more books to come, be patient.
Speaking of is anyone else looking forward to Dalinar/Szeth Interactions?
44@EvilMonkey,
“When you rail against Dalinar you are really railing against Alethkar and their cultural norms.”
Exactly. I haven’t seen anyone blaming Elhokar for being in a completely different country from his wife and son for almost six years. He didn’t see his son since birth. Three years. Of course, no one says it. Everyone blames Dalinar for not seeing “poor” Renarin for a year. So hypocritical.
@45 BenW
I am looking forward to the awkwardness between Szeth and the main cast that Brandon has confirmed in WoB will be coming in the next book lol. I am also definitely looking forward to seeing Szeth using division as a skybreaker, and hopefully greater use of divison from Malata :)
@47 The thing is What I am thinking is that while everyone else may distance themself from Dalinar when the truth is reveled the same may not happen to Szeth and here’s why. They are basically foils to each other. Want me to go into details for the parallels because I can?
@48 BenW
Well this is a discussion, and I do not recall you elaborating on it in the past, so I see no reason not to. Please do.
Gepeto @5:
Not to go into any potentially spoilerific detail, but the Blackthorn would have been right at home in Westeros, respected and admired. Great warrior, great general, keeps his word, loyal to his friends, terrible to his enemies? People like that are very much glorified in that world – as they were in ours for a very long time and partially still are.
I have briefly scanned the first chapter where they appear in WoK yesterday – and it is a bit odd that Adolin thinks that Dalinar had been completely OK before Gavilar’s assassination and that said event was the greatest pain that his father has ever felt. Possibly another mild retcon between WoK and OB? He also tells Dalinar that being Alethi is all about amassing wealth and prestige… and in the OB he is convinced that the Rathalas massacre was mainly Sadeas’s work.
As to parental neglect – I have always thought that most Alethi military couples have the same arrangements for their children as the majority of Colonial British of certain standing did – i.e. that as soon as the children are old enough they are sent into the care of extended family, schools run by the ardentia, etc. It is dangerous to have all these kids in the baggage train and they also need to train and learn. So, parents would mainly see their offspring between campaigns or in winter, if military action pauses seasonally. It is probably different on the Shattered Plains, as they had been there for so long and the camps became very secure, but I’d still expect a number of people to have children back home – very much hope that it becomes an issue in Book 4. It really should have already come up in OB!
For that matter, grandpa Kholin became incapacitated when Dalinar was a kid, so in their family it is pretty much generational. Judging by Ehlokar, Gavilar hadn’t been a great dad to his son either.
We do know that Adolin always had warm feelings towards Navani, very much enjoyed being “mothered” by her and missed her when she was absent from the Shattered Plains, which is all evidence of her playing a significant part in his childhood, IMHO. She also looks out for Renarin and in OB we have found out about his close relationship to Jasnah. By contrast, the brothers seemed to be quite distant with Elhokar, even though it would have been quite natural for him to play an “elder brother”. About Gavilar’s role in their upbringing, we know nothing.
And, of course, the 6 good years of familial closeness on the Shattered Plains would have smoothed whatever bitterness the boys felt and reinforced the notion that Dalinar’s absences in service of Alethkar was necessary and glorious and that his subsequent breakdown was due to exhaustion from his long travail and grief. Dalinar’s “bigger than life” personality would have only contributed to this perception that he deserved whatever space he needed.
Lordruler @41:
Do you really believe that girls whine more than boys? Or that it is OK to use “girl” as a perjorative?
And what books have you been reading where Adolin is not a battle-hardened warrior and battle commander? And he did earn Mayalaran on his own.
As to Renarin, come on, the dude has suffered. Sure, it would have been even worse for him if he had been born poor – but being a high noble in his condidtion brings it’s own difficulties. Also, at the time of second Rathalas Dalinar hadn’t seen his younger son in more than 3 years.
Re: Moash, we have seen that humans serving the Fuised at Aharietam were unfeeling brutes who didn’t care about anything except spilling blood, so his condition is normal for an Odium recruit. Interestingly enough, the new singers seem less vulnerable, so far.
@42: You are entitled to your views, to your opinions and to your interpretation of the narrative. You however need to understand other people aren’t interpretation the narrative within the same ways as you and if you feel entitled to read Renarin as nothing more than a “whiny girl” (not to mention how pejorative and stereotyped it is to associate whiny to girls specifically) and Adolin as nothing more than a “grown ass-lazy moron” then other readers are perfectly entitled to view them in a complete different manner.
For the rest, I fail to see what you are trying to accomplish here.
Adolin has many flaws, but he is the opposite of laxy.
Renarin never whines and rarely complains. He certainly indulges in self-pity, but it’s internal most of the time–Adolin or Dalinar has to draw him out when they want to know why he’s unhappy.
IsiIeI@50,
Ok, he can be a whiny boy. Doesn’t matter. How did he suffer? Who did hurt him? Who did mistreat him? Nobody. He was bathing in care and luxury.
“And what books have you been reading where Adolin is not a battle-hardened warrior and battle commander?”
In book I read he’s a lazy spoiled rich prince who wants to rest for all the time, court girls and drink wine. Ah, and he refuses to become a King (reject his responsibility) just because “he won’t have enough time for rest”. What a poor traumatized soul!
“And he did earn Mayalaran on his own.”
Because author made him a Mary Sue, who never faces hardships. Super-duper talented duelist who achieve everything without any hard working.
“Dalinar hadn’t seen his younger son in more than 3 years.”
One year, three years, it doesn’t matter.That is what Alethi people do. They love their families, but they don’t have to be there. That’s what being a couple in Alethkar means.Women stay home, and raise the next generation, men to go out and secure the future.That’s absolutely normal for them. Elhokar didn’t see his son for three year. How you ever seen someone blaming him for it? I haven’t. Of course, this is Elhokar, he’s amazing, he can do whatever he wants. But Dalinar must spend all free time with his stupid wife and sons. Double standards?
@lordruler: Final warning–if you can’t engage with commenters with whom you disagree in a civil manner, then don’t engage with them at all. You have been asked multiple times to moderate your tone and not make arguments personal; this is the last time that request will be made.
Women don’t stay at home and raise the kids, they accompany their men who need them as scribes. Shallan is from a different culture and thinks it is strange that Navani looks at corpses, but for Alethi it is normal that women are part of warfare. They are just the organizers, not the fighters.
Back to the re-read chapters at hand. Regarding the curiosity of what happens to the Herald’s bodies when they die. I think the body dies as normal, while the cognitive shadow returns to Braize. When one of the Heralds give in to the torture, the investiture coalesces growing them a full grown body that they then inhabit. The growing a brand new body is confirmed by WoB, which I have posted in the past but can post again if requested. I do not think the body disappears like a shardblade after killed, but that is just conjecture on my part.
57@birgit,
Depends. Elhokar’s wife stayed in Kholinar to raise their child and rule the capital.
@49 To be fair this is the first time I thought of it. But I figured that once brought up it would be obvious. Well I will give it a shot.
So yeah for all their differences they have a LOT of similarities. And even their differences are complimentary.
Isilel @50
” I have briefly scanned the first chapter where they appear in WoK yesterday – and it is a bit odd that Adolin thinks that Dalinar had been completely OK before Gavilar’s assassination and that said event was the greatest pain that his father has ever felt. Possibly another mild retcon between WoK and OB?”
I think the difference is 2-fold. One, Adolin was a child when Evi died and thus probably more focused on his own pain of loss than his father’s. Two, Adolin didn’t get to witness the immediate aftermath of Dalinar’s reaction to Evi’s death while he was present at Gavilar’s demise and Dalinar’s immediate reaction to that event.
I like the idea that Alethi Generals are akin to Colonial British nobility in the child-rearing department.
@Gepeto
I guess I must have misunderstood your complaint regarding Dalinar and the reason you cannot form a sympathetic reaction to him. I figured any dissenting views on him coming from the narrative (and not coming from someone we can dismiss as a complete asshole like Sadeas or a foreign leader) would expand your understanding of him as a potential sympathetic figure. I figured that someone who was willing to be critical of him for any reason would suffice. But if I’m getting to the heart of your complaint, it’s that nobody is calling him out over bad parenting. It can’t be everything; Kadash condemns his murderous past, saying that it was only ok because Vorinism said so, that throwing away Vorinism means that what Dalinar did in his youth, what Kadash ultimately helped him to accomplish, was as evil as it felt when they were pillaging the Alethi countryside. I’m not disregarding your opinions or even trying to convince you otherwise, just trying to get to the meat of your issue.
@carl re: Shallan and the Ghostbloods
Mraize isn’t in conflict with Shallan at the moment. He’s trying to secure a powerful potential ally to whatever cause the Ghostbloods are actually engaged in. He’s smart enough to know you don’t throw away assets until it becomes absolutely necessary or the asset is no longer effective in their role. Once Shallan proved she could be useful by flawlessly completing her assignments and avoiding a weak assassination attempt the wooing began. Now however it’s a race against time. I don’t see Shallan as a natural fit for whatever the Ghostbloods aims are. Their interests will not be alligned forever. Shallan must therefore gain enough experience while she and Mraize are aiming at the same type of targets so that she will stand a chance when the divergence comes. If the Ghostbloods wanted her finished now as she stands currently and put a serious effort into her destruction, she’d be done for, Radiant or not, connections or not. How do I know this? Because brilliant, devious Jasnah has been dodging assassination for at least 6 years and they still managed to surprise her. She’d almost died despite her capabilities; now that they know what a Radiant’s capabilities are they will be much more successful if they need to target future Radiants. Learn fast Shallan. Learn quickly.
@60 BenW
Hmmmm, I wouldn’t say the Shin encouraged their soldiers to go out and kill. Even when they got rid of Szeth, they didn’t say “kill whoever you are commanded to by the holder of the oathstone”. They said “do whatever you are commanded to by the holder of the oathstone” which did include helping a farmer farm. Soldiers are looked at as the lowest in their society because those who “take away” are seem as lesser to those “that add”. So I do not feel their culture encourages killing personally.
I will say you do make an interesting point regarding Dalinar and Szeth with what is keeping them involved with killing. They both hear the horrible never ending screaming in their minds from the people they have killed. They both had an external entity (the Thrill for Dalinar, the holder of the oathstone for Szeth) seemingly urge them towards killing, and they both claimed responsibility for their own actions ultimately even though it would have been easier to blame what was urging them.
I disagree that Szeth tried to kill himself. I feel in both scenes he felt he deserved the punishment, and did not resist. To be that is different than putting the sword to your own throat, but I understand the line dividing the two is rather thin.
That is an excellent point of symmetry about being labeled heretics for speaking the truth. Good eye!
Gepeto @39 – I must say, I think a lot of Alethi families are most likely what we would consider “dysfunctional” especially in terms of parental nurturing and involvement. I sometimes wonder if Adolin and Renarin had it better (in one way) than many others: their mother loved them deeply, and was very much involved in their early lives. We don’t really know what “normal” looks like for the Alethi; it may have been much like the higher levels of society in our own not-too-distant past, where servants were responsible for most of the daily issues of raising children. (Isilel’s comparison to British colonials is very apt.) This wouldn’t be true of (most) darkeyes, nor for the lower dahns, but the upper dahns might well have had very little parental involvement. I firmly believe that kids need the involvement of both parents in their lives to flourish most (assuming that neither parent is a sociopath or whatever), but that hasn’t always been the expectation.
I too am looking forward – with some trepidation! – to seeing how his sons respond to what Dalinar has to reveal. (I’m assuming that he will reveal, at least to them, the truth of how their mother died.) I doubt they’ll change their minds about the general destruction at the Rift… unless they see everything about Vorinism differently now, recognizing that the Thrill is of Odium and that most of what Dalinar did that day was Odium-influenced rather than Honor-influenced. In fact, I’m really looking forward to seeing the Alethi in general being forced to recognize that so much of what they did “for Honor/the Almighty” was really done at the direction of one of the Unmade and served Odium. That should be a right cultural shakeup.
@@@@@ Alice
Dalinar’s going to put it in the book. Oathbringer will be a tell-all autobiography. I predict that there will be some changes in the relationship between Dalinar and his sons. It’s impossible to predict what that reaction will be. Odium’s influence may or may not be a mitigating factor; Dalinar would say that it was not. I don’t think it will come to violence but there will be pain. Further, I don’t believe Adolin and Renarin will react in the same way. I believe it will come down to which feeling is stronger, love for their mother versus honor of their father.
@50: My reasons for bringing up Westeros wasn’t to evaluate how the Blackthorn might have been received within this universe, they were an attempt to figure out why I, as a reader, struggle to feel sympathy for Dalinar when I have no such issues with other characters having done deeds of dubious morality. I picked up Jaime/Theon from GoT because they are well-known characters many readers feel some amount of sympathy for despite their actions. My intends were to draw a parallel in how those characters are being depicted within their universe and why this portrayal made me feel sympathy for them while the portrayal of Dalinar in SA isn’t. Thus, I wasn’t interested in attempting to figure how Dalinar would fare on Westeros, more how how his narrative have been written and how it didn’t generate the same feelings of sympathy/pity other readers have develop for his character.
I could have also mentioned Moash I now feel surprisingly some amount of sympathy with, but I felt he was too much of a contentious character to illustrate my thoughts.
I agree with you on the many elements you have noted within this post and your previous ones which feels like retcon in between OB and the previous books. I too noted how odd it was for Adolin to state Dalinar had been crushed, destroyed by Gavilar’s death when OB’s narrative implies he has been a mess for years when this happened. I also noted how Adolin seemed to have been surprised to learn his father had been drunk the night Gavilar died… given how Dalinar spent 6 years being more or less drunk, Adolin’s reaction here strikes me as odd. Did you re-read the passage where Adolin speaks of why he decided to go to the Shattered Plains? This passage too clashes with Oathbringer as it implies Adolin actually had a choice when it comes to joining the war effort or not. In the same paragraph, Adolin also speaks of how his intends, when he chose to become a soldier, were to slaughter enough Parshendis his father would feel revenge has been achieved and thus go back to “the man he was before”. That too is odd as Dalinar pre-Gavilar’s death wasn’t…. well… someone you’d cherish nor worship.
I noticed most of the plot elements you noticed on my first read and I have been curious to know if those were caught during the reviews. In other words, was it intentional on Brandon? Did he really retcon part of the narrative or is it we are making the wrong links? For instance, this moment where Dalinar nearly killed Gavilar, 28 years ago, could it be there was another event which happened 10 years ago, but wasn’t shown in the flashbacks? I seem to recall Dalinar speaking of hesitating while standing in a tent? Am I remembering it right? It could be it wasn’t the same event…. The same with Adolin’s backstory…. There might be a plausible explanation which isn’t a retcon: we just need to hear it.
On another note, I do think Adolin thinking they are on the Shattered Plains to amass wealth and prestige is a by-product of how this particular war turned out. They were indeed amassing wealth and prestige…. Adolin was also very young when they first moved to the Shattered Plains, he tends to be naive and impressionable, his lack of insight isn’t particularly surprising here.
As for Adolin believing Sadeas is responsible for the Rift, wasn’t it the lie they all decided to tell? Didn’t Gavilar say the “official version” of the events was Evi was abducted and murdered. In retribution, the Alethi attacked the Rift and Sadeas accidentally put to the flames… Hence, Adolin is merely believing the lie every Alethi was told. The part where I think he is extrapolating is when he said his father would have stopped Sadeas had he not been injured, grieving and loss.
That’s where I think the truth will hurt… Adolin believes Dalinar would have stopped the Rift from burning had Evi not been murdered. Finding out Dalinar had purposefully burn the Rift, finding out Evi had not been abducted but was instead trying to save the many life in Rathalas will be a shock. I can’t see how it wouldn’t be a shock given how Adolin has internalized the event and distorted the actual truth to make it fit with his hero-worship complex.
On parental neglect: What you say is true though I would point out the narrative states while Dalinar being away warring is not out of the ordinary, him never coming back home is.
On Adolin/Navani: What you say is also true, though I find it is difficult to determine if he merely refers to Navani’s current behavior (she is drawing a glyph for him when he has those thoughts, something his own mother would have done for him had she been alive) or if it speaks of a deeper bond. Now, it is obvious Adolin loves Navani, but I still wonder how involved she really was with him and Renarin during Dalinar’s drunken years. After all, we also have extracts which spoke of Navani having kept her distances prior to Gavilar’s death.
I also think we must be careful in extrapolating how we read the current character relationships into their past… As an example, within WoK/WoR, I always read the Dalinar/Renarin relationship as positive and healthy: I would have never guessed, based on the previous narrative, Renarin had suffered from neglect. I theorized Adolin suffered from a combination of Dalinar’s too high expectations and his hero-worship complex which prevents him from realizing it. This turned out being true, but Renarin? Hence, I find it difficult to draw in conclusions with respect to how Navani/Jasnah really were with the boys without getting additional insights from either the author or the narrative.
On girls being whiny: Well said. I replied exactly the same in my previous posts. This kind of stereotype does not have its place within a serious conversation.
On Renarin: I think we should not underestimate how harmful it must have been for a little boy to stand by the window, hoping the next cart would have his father in it only to never… see him coming back home, not because he can’t, but because he won’t.
@61: On Adolin not having witnessed his father’s grief: We should keep in mind where the boy was when his mother died. On a cart on the way home. Alone. With no closed ones, just guards and probably an Ardent or two.
I think you are close to the meat of the issue. I also need to reinforce the fact I am, myself, trying to understand why I feel this way. I do not have all of the answers, I just realized I was more unsympathetic towards him than most readers. I wondered why and what would change my feelings. It isn’t an easy process and yes, I think it isn’t wrong to think having someone like Kadash criticize Dalinar might help. It does help, but perhaps Kadash isn’t an important enough character to be this voice. Or perhaps it is just I who, not caring much for religion, is not as moved with this argument as ones revolving around the kids which is something I feel very strongly about.
The good news here is Dalinar is far from the only character I have struggled to feel sympathy for within my reading career. Just because I have those feelings now does not mean I will still have them later.
@63: Without other examples, I find it hard to evaluate how worst Adolin/Renarin were than the majority of other Alethi children in terms of parenting. I must however state Brandon took the time to flesh out those relationships: he told us Dalinar was a bad father, he had Dalinar admit he had been neglecting his children (though his children refuse to see it as neglect which really is a recurrent behavior with young victims of abuse, the inability to see they were badly cared for). My thoughts are thus if Brandon has chosen to depict those relationships as negative, then it must be because we are meant to read them as negative… See where I am getting at? It is very different than the warfare where it is obvious Alethi have a very different perspective on it than us. When it comes to parenting, Dalinar is being told he is neglecting his kids, Kaladin does call Elhokar out for not having cared for his family when he was on the Shattered Plains.
Hence, while I do agree being away warring was likely accepted and common, I still think Dalinar brought it to a new level by just refusing to go back home.
On the Rift and the boys: We do not know how Renarin feels about the Rift nor his mother’s death, hence I find it difficult to guess how he might react. I am tempted to say the scene where he goes to stand behind his father foreshadows him moving in as Dalinar’s new right hand man, a thought reinforced by Dalinar ignoring Adolin in Thaylenah… but I would also argue I am pulling at invisible straws here.
We however do know how Adolin feels about it. We do know he does not approve of the death toll there: he firmly believes Dalinar would have prevented the fires from happening had he not been “injured” and “grieving over Evi’s dearh”. We also saw how he reacted towards killing the Sadeas’s soldiers towards the end: not well. Hence, while it could be Adolin’s idolizing of Dalinar will be stronger than his other feelings, I would still argue a proto-Edgedancer (since we have a WoB which states Maya would have probably chosen Adolin had she been alive, I think it is safe to say it now) is about the last person to believe the Rift massacre was needed.
@64: I agree on Adolin/Renarin not reacting the same. I have been predicting Adolin will not react well, but I can’t say about Renarin. I can see it go both ways.
Sadly I must abandon the field on Stormlight re-reads.
Back in the day I came to these posts for unnoticed connections between what I had read and where I was at the posting date. Good stuff. Nowadays I feel like a fourth grader in a 400-level college classroom, as so many of Sanderson book-signing comments and Cosmere obscurities are dissected for their speculative gemhearts. I just cannot keep up, and really don’t want to; the books are excellent reading and I can manage fine with my meager insights and short memories.
Enough about me: you who thrive here are in your element and will continue to derive great joy from these chapters. I will find my level and have a grand adventure as well.
Thank you re-readers for the work, the fun, and all the fish.
It’s interesting that, when his memories are restored, Dalinar is “Remembering those who have been forgotten” and “Listening to those who have been ignored.” He’s also facing truths that have long been buried in his heart, difficult truths that he previously avoided. And we’ve surely seen him “Protect those who cannot protect themselves” when he bought the bridgemen from Sadeas, and other times too. Not saying he’d ever have been a different KR order, but just… interesting. I wonder if part of being a Bondsmith is to be “united” to the other 9 KR orders by experiencing or supporting their oaths?
Re: some posts on the Alethi, & especially Kadash and the ardents, facing that much of their culture rests on the influence of one of the Unmade – I think their reaction will be rage, not shame. I can imagine where they would direct their anger over this at Odium, who perverted Honor’s good intentions for them as a people and tried to reduce them to being his tool. And once they find the remaining Listeners, they may dedicate their warfare to helping those true Rosharans win back their planet from those of their number (the Fused & followers) who are likewise being used by Odium: the Alethi might fight to free the Listeners as they have (hopefully) been freed. I know this is a bit rose-colored-glasses, but my speculation is as valid as anyone else’s.:-)
@38 Walker – Hear, hear!! Tor.com has done and is doing a superb job!
Gotta say, too, that I respect @67 Longviewer’s thoughts; I myself prefer to “experience” what happens in the books *with* the characters, and that means I avoid spoilers like the plague. The result is that I skim the comments here and end up skipping over some parts that others fully enjoy – sort of like being at a party and deciding which conversation group to join. Over the years, one of the great things I’ve noticed about Sander-fans (including and especially while standing in several long lines at the Oathbringer release event) is how we respect the way each other enjoys Brandon’s works: not everyone has to investigate every WoB; not everyone has to like/dislike the same characters; everyone has their own theories and is happy for our diversity. I’ve seen it for years on the 17th Shard, here in these wonderful re-reads, and in person at the OB event. This is something unique and valuable, and enriches us all. …OK, done gushing now. ;-)
Of course, Dalinar treated his family the way which is absolutely typical in traditional Alethi culture, at least at their dahn. His children had it much better than most of the others. This is the fact aproved by textual canon. Nothing suggests Dalinar treated his family badly. Adolin and Renarin was bathing in care and luxury. Saying they had a bad childhood and comparing Alethi culture and society with modern world is…not very fair.
@@@@@ 70: Dalinar didn’t treat his family badly – he wasn’t there at all for long stretches of time when he got blackout drunk. If you asked children of alcoholic parents I’m sure they would disagree that they had it better than most of the other children. Also if you asked any child who lost a parent at a young age, they would disagree they had it better as well. Care and luxury means nothing when one parent is never there / drunk off his ass and the other dies when you are barely in your teens.
Adolin is remarkably well-adjusted, which is why his problems don’t seem as significant as Kaladin’s for example. But the pressures of living up to his father, being the perfect man his father wants him to be, are significant, especially in Alethi culture. They would weigh on him, heavily. He cycles through women pre-Shallan because he’s expected to settle down, but all the Alethi women act the same, which he cannot stand. He falls for Shallan because she is refreshing and different. On another point, the fact that Adolin is the best duelist in Alethkar wasn’t by accident. He would have worked his butt off to be that good, similar to any elite professional athlete. No one gets that good at anything by being lazy. It just wasn’t mentioned in the books.
As for Renarin, growing up with some sort of autism and seizures cannot be easy, especially in a culture which seems to shy away from any discussion about mental illness or difficulty. That’s hard for anyone – even though its easier if you have the finances to make treatment available. It’s still not easy. Also, if Adolin faces pressure to be like Dalinar, how much pressure does Renarin feel to have Dalinar and Adolin ahead of him, paragons of Alethi manhood? And he has no chance to duplicate that because of his physical setbacks. And the things he’s passionate about are traditionally performed by women. All that has to be so hard to deal with. And he’s whiny because he’s bonding with Glys and can suddenly see the future, which is supposed to be of the Voidbringers, which would be terrifying, and all the things he’s seeing are awful to boot. I’d be panicky too.
Having said all that, the one person in Stormlight who had a truly awful, traumatic childhood is Shallan.
@71 Gaz,
” he wasn’t there at all for long stretches of time “
Just like all Alethi. That’s the point. That’s how Alethi fathers treat their families. Parents aren’t involved in the process too much. Why Dalinar is the one to blame? Double standards? If you don’t like it, then blame Alethi ways and culture. Don’t blame Dalinar only.
“when he got blackout drunk.”
Because he was a broken mess incapable of raising children. And he became like this due to unfortunate chain of events, which wasn’t really his fault. We can’t blame Dalinar for being drunk, we can’t blame person with mental health problems.
“Also if you asked any child who lost a parent at a young age, they would disagree they had it better as well. Care and luxury means nothing when one parent is never there / drunk off his ass and the other dies when you are barely in your teens.”
Ok, right. My father, my only family member was killed in a street brawl when I was ten. Then I spend six years in Children’s home. Also I was born blind in one eye. Now I’m slowly losing my other eye. I’ll be blind in a couple of years. Huh, as much as I want to read the rest of Dalinar’s story, seems like I won’t. Most likely I won’t be able to read book 4 of Stormlight. Unless someone will read it for me. Huh, I’ll feel like Alethi man…That’s ok. Bad things happen sometimes, nothing we can do with it. Someone Above decided my life must be like this. Not that I complain, why should I? Whining won’t return my eyes. Instead I’m trying to convince myself I’m a lucky man. I’m able to see this world for almost thirty years. Some people were born blind. I spend ten years with my father. Some people were robbed of parent’s love at birth. Maybe my father wasn’t a greatest man ever lived, I used to see him being drunk too often, but I know how hard it was for him to raise me alone. I understand and forgive him everything, he was a good man ang he used to love me, I know it. There are always people who had it worse than you. People live without legs, without eyes, without families. Who am I to complain? And every time I read someone claim what a horrific awful traumatic childhood Adolin and Renarin had, I roll my eyes so I can see my skull. If THAT is horrific childhood, then which world should we, humble mortals, use to describe ours? Those two are pampered rich princes who lived in luxury surrounded by hundreds of servants and nurses. They had everything people can dream about. They didn’t know what war means, what responsibility means, what trauma is. How dare they complain? How dare they blame Dalinar in anything? They owe him everything they have in life. Of course, Dalinar’s trauma is more important than theirs, because it’s a real existing mental illness, not non-existing problem like “I’m a week guy with the glasses! Nobody loves me!” or “Father want me to be a good person but all I want is fashion magazine!” Yeah, what a horror. I find Adolin’s behavior in the first book (and Oathbringer) disgusting. He’s spoiled, he’s lazy, he doesn’t want to work, he wants to relax in a company of pretty girl. And THIS person is traumatized? THIS is an example of a victim of traumatic childhood? Nonsense. This is a selfish lazy fop. Aside of real life, we have in-world examples of real troubles:
1)I was made a slave and a living target.
2)I was forced to kill both of my parents.
3)Evil God wants me to join his side. He brainwashed me and he was grooming me as his weapon of mass destruction since I was a teenager.
…
4)I don’t want to be King…I won’t have free time for fashion magazines…
These two have no problems and no responsibilities. If they have some, it’s too insignificant in comparison with other characters.
” But the pressures of living up to his father, being the perfect man his father wants him to be, are significant, especially in Alethi culture. “
Adolin had no pressure. He didn’t want to become a new King, Dalinar let him do whatever he wants. Dalinar himself is under greatest pressure, he’s bounded by Oath to save this storming world. That’s the pressure. Adolin has none.
“And he’s whiny because he’s bonding with Glys and can suddenly see the future, which is supposed to be of the Voidbringers, which would be terrifying, and all the things he’s seeing are awful to boot. I’d be panicky too.”
Dalinar also sees horrific visions of the past and future destructions. I don’t remember reading his whines about it.
Why should Alethi automatically see Odium as a bad guy? If Honor is a dead god, it might be better to worship a living god. When they learn that the Thrill comes from him that is even more reason for people like Sadeas and young Dalinar to respect him. The Radiants see Odium as the enemy because their spren do, but most people don’t seem to know anyting about him. It might well be easy for Odium to convince them that he is the good guy and the Radiants, who are already distrusted, are the Voidbringers who enslaved the Parsh and stole their world.
How is Renarin whiny? He keeps silent about his screaming Blade and his corrupted spren because he doesn’t want do burden others with his “weakness”.
#65, Gepeto: maybe it’s worth pointing out that Dalinar actually did try to stop the burning at the Rift, and Sadeas really did make that impossible. Dalinar was not without sin–he also started the burning, after all. The official story isn’t actually totally false, though.
#69, @aggie1: notice that every Radiant also defends those who cannot defend themselves. All the Oaths are meant to be “Ideals” after all–any good person (or person with good in them) will do good things, even without swearing an oath to always do them.
#71, @Gaz: “Having said all that, the one person in Stormlight who had a truly awful, traumatic childhood is Shallan.” Depends. Was Kaladin an adult as a young teenager, when his younger brother was casually sent to his death in one of Amaram’s battles? How about Lift, who was also orphaned at a young age and had to survive on the streets? Of course we know nothing about her early life but interesting hints. Moash, for that matter, was yet a third orphan. Renarin had not one but two chronic, incurable (until the reversal of the Recreance) neurological diseases … and was an orphan at a young age.
Wait, is “orphan” a theme of the Stormlight Archive? Szeth is not permitted to use his father’s name, now that I think about it, but whoever-father-Szeth might still be alive for all we know. Actually, we don’t know how old Gavilar and Dalinar were when their own parents died, Gavilan is an orphan ….
Aggie@68
Interesting idea about the Bondsmiths. Maybe the tie-in to Dalinar’s oath to unite instead of divide is to unite the KR and yoke them to a singular purpose. It makes sense then that to lead them he must understand them and a part of that understanding comes from knowing and in some ways embodying their Oaths. Sounds cool.
Re: Dalinar and parenting skills (again)
We can argue whether Dalinar was or was not a good parent to his sons. We know he was not involved when they were small and a blackout drunk when he was home. We know that his children are remarkably well adjusted despite his lack of effort (at least before the magically induced amnesia). Adolin/Renarin have issues but those issues aren’t incredibly debilitating like the scions of the Davar family. What We don’t know is whether he was a typical Alethi parent. What we don’t know is if Dalinar was exceptionally bad or if all Alethi of their station have similar experiences growing up. Evidence suggests that Dalinar was no better or no worse in this regard. Navani and Jasnah aren’t condemning him for bad parenting. Elkohar is just as absent in his own son’s life before his fall. Gavilar did not seem to be particularly close to his children and he was home for the majority of their lives. We don’t know if General Khal treats his sons in a similar fashion but they all followed in dad’s footsteps. Meaning they are all soldiers and are all probably Thrill addicts and likely suffer from the withdrawal outside of wartime actions. It’s not conclusive. We really don’t know. But if Dalinar’s actions are indeed the typical Alethi parenting profile then we are overly critical. Rising above your own upbringing and cultural standards is nearly impossible regardless of who you are.
@71: Great post Gaz!
Money certainly doesn’t buy everything: the fact Adolin/Renarin lived in material luxury doesn’t take away from their hardships just as Shallan having grown too within what is considered luxury isn’t mitigating the abuse she suffered. Shallan herself is forced to admit, in WoR when she strolls as Veil the first time, how her family, while considered impoverish by lighteyed standards, still was quite wealthy. She too lacked nothing when it came to material need, she too was materially spoiled by a father who strove to put her into a golden cage and yet the mistreatment she received is quite real. As such, I truly do not understand how it can be said Adolin/Renarin’s family wealth is somewhat sufficient to offset the fact their mother died when they were kids and they father abandoned them, left them to be raised by an extended family who perhaps wasn’t as involved as you’d want them to be.
Also, the pressure Dalinar puts on Adolin would weight on anyone, no matter their stations in life. In fact, SA is quite a re-telling of modern day life when you put it within perspective: Adolin goes through hardships rich kids often go through, pressure, difficulties meeting the expectations of famous parents, stress which manifest either in having those kids live in the excesses (not Adolin) or work crazy hard to show their worth (Adolin). And yet, the more they work, the less the parents seem to notice. It is quite modern, refreshing and extremely relatable to anyone who ever struggled to meet up expectations others or yourself place on you. The very idea you are as good as your achievements is terribly nefarious and in Adolin’s case it is even worst: he places no stock value on his own achievements. He takes no pride. Shallan says he is humble, but narrative implies what passes as humility is in fact Adolin always thinking what he did isn’t significant, important, worthy.
I have always found Adolin’s inner monologue on how nothing he does, nothing he is good at is enough nor sufficient to deem him worthy. How he isn’t good at everything he considers important or should matter. How he has set himself up to fail and yet still keeps on trying. After how much adversity must someone decide to give up? How many hate mail before one decides to cave in, leave and rank a new endeavor as yet another failure?
I will also add it is mentioned in text Adolin worked very hard to become the best duelist in Alethkar. Dalinar says so in WoK when Elhokar tells him Adolin was good enough to be the King’s Champion. Hence, at no point within the narrative has Adolin ever been lazy, quite the opposite. He claims his skills come from his height, his reach and his father’s wealth which got him good training partners… but in reality it came from hard work. He isn’t a natural athlete like Kaladin.
And yes, Adolin is “well-adjusted” and that’s because his entire psyche is built around being strong, not being vulnerable which rings so false to me I can almost see through it. We spoke a few weeks ago how some people would rather cloak themselves into arrogance and an uncaring attitude than to admit their weaknesses, well Adolin is another case of a similar behavior. He rarely speaks of how he feels (no one ever asks him too), he is acting strong at all time, but we see in his monologue, on the inside, he is not strong. In Shadesmar, it is particularly obvious: his inner thoughts speak of him feeling like a frightened child, but his outside spoke of the same steady, confident man who made sure Kaladin was alright. He never made sure HE was alright, no one else did and we see how Elhokar’s death (he will not think about this because if he thinks about it, he’ll crash, like Kaladin), how the unfamiliar settings where he cannot hide the fact he is useless, how the fear of being forced to take up a crown he cannot accept while still pretending to his father’s perfect son weight on him.
That’s hardship and just because Adolin doesn’t freeze nor stumble doesn’t make it less real. It is there and it is slowly building up. First, Adolin becomes aware of the clash there is in between the man he really is and the man his father thinks he is. He realizes his claims all he wants to do in life is to leisure and court were just made-up excuses to hide the real reasons why he didn’t want to move forward. What do I expect for book 4? I expect Adolin to start figuring out the man he really is and to do this, he may need to part with the last of the expectations Dalinar put on him.
I also agree dealing with autism is hard on anyone, no matter their environment and having a disability in a world where there is zero awareness for such conditions should have been hard. I think you are right in saying Renarin has another kid of pressure, not one which is passed down from his father onto him, but the one he puts onto himself as he keeps seeing his inability to be a soldier as a weakness and potentially as the reason why his father didn’t bother with him for the first 13 years of his life. Dalinar wasn’t just absent: he did NOT care for Renarin, he did not visit him, he did not pay him any attention, he did not acknowledge him as his son. That’s an awful place to be for any child no matter how rich. Yes, Renarin is whiny, at times, yes he tends to face hardships by cowering up, giving up and moping: he has a very different mindset than his brother, but I suspect this is because Renarin never had any successes. Adolin knows hard work produces results, while Renarin just figures nothing is working. We do however see his mindset change in OB as he realizes he too can accomplish great things. That scene, towards the end, where he ushered his brother to safety was an amazing switch within the Adolin/Renarin relationship. Adolin is no longer the protector, now he is the one Renarin needs to protect. That was sweet. I can’t wait to see how it evolves.
@74: Unfortunate chain of events which isn’t his fault? The narrative makes a point to highlight how Dalinar always had the choice not to burn the Rift, but chose to nonetheless. Sorry, but this was all his fault. He admits as much. Dealing with the aftermath by drowning into alcohol was also his fault: much easier than actually trying to deal with the side-effects. His behavior is no different than Shallan creating personas to evade the truth.
Sorry but no. Dalinar is totally to blame for what happened just as he is too blame for having neglected his kids. And yes, the narrative does highlight, by Alethi standard, how neglecting Dalinar has actually been. Even he admits as much.
For the rest, I am sorry about your misfortune, but people react differently to trauma. As I said above, if all you want to read into Adolin’s character are two sentences taken out of context without seeing everything else the character also says, this is your choice. You can’t however expect other readers to agree with you.
And Dalinar is grown man in his fifties. Renarin is a teenager. I think this counts for something.
@77: This is true, but I would counter-argue Sadeas was following the orders Dalinar gave him. Dalinar did tell him to make sure no one would get out. He changes his mind afterwards, but Sadeas had followed through with the orders in a throughout manner. Sure, Sadeas is not a nicer person, but I will not give Dalinar a free-pass out of this one: his initial intentions were to kill everyone living and he made sure this would happen.
@78: On Dalinar: We have Navani say Dalinar’s neglect is not usual by their standards. She says it was a shame he didn’t come home more often. So we do have an indication of how his behavior holds up against their society: not well.
On Elhokar: Kaladin does criticize his parenting. It is implied he has been away too long too.
Just found this interesting: in his latest video Dr. Aaron Carroll asks people to get flu vaccinations to “Protect those can’t protect themselves.” All you Windrunner Squires, you heard the man!
@Gepeto
One small innocuous comment in over 3000 words of narrative does not indicate abnormal behavior on the parenting front. I do not remember Navani making the comment so I cannot infer the reason she makes that comment from context clues, but her motivation for that comment could mean more than one thing. After all, she had been crushing on Dalinar almost as much as he carried a flame for her.
As for Kaladin’s criticism of Elkohar I deem that invalid. He is of a different class and therefore his rearing experience is different than the Alethi elite. The only lighteyed people he’d ever known before his trip into the Shattered Plains were Roshone’s family and Wistiow’s family. Citylords, not royalty. He doesn’t have the frame of reference to say what is typical for the childhood of elites.
@lordruler
Adolin isn’t lazy, I have to disagree with you on that point. His perceived unworthiness is what makes him wish to avoid responsibility. He just doesn’t want to run the show, which would probably make him a better noble in the long run than Alethi typically get. He plays the fop but that’s a deflection tactic; the boy has depth as he shows in Shadesmar. Renarin up until recently had a disease that prevented him from following in his brother and his father’s footsteps, something he longed to do since he likely equates martial prowess with love and familial attention. He displays self-pity but rarely whines. And now that he’s coming into a better understanding of his newly acquired powers I expect him to whine a lot less. You are, I’ve noticed, as much a rider for Dalinar as Gepeto is for Adolin. That’s cool, just don’t disregard his faults in a rush to extoll his virtues. This is coming from a guy that would choose Dalinar for a commanding officer, not so much as a father figure.
Jumping back about 20 comments… we have to remember that Szeth was not a typical Shin soldier. He trained with the Stone Shamans on every one of the Honorblades they held, which I suspect means that he was part of the Shamanate somehow. We don’t know yet why he was still bonded to Jezrien’s Honorblade when he was banished as Truthless, but it sure will be interesting to find out.
Also, his name is Szeth-son-Neturo. When they named him Truthless he didn’t want to bring such dishonor to his father, so he started using his grandfather’s name and called himself Szeth-son-son-Vallano.
@80: LOL.
@81: I consider Evi telling Dalinar Navani told her it was shameful he did not come home more often to visit is more than one innocuous comment. Granted, Navani is eyes over heels in love with Dalinar (though she likely wasn’t at the time) and will often not criticize him, but I do take Evi being told, even by Alethi standards, Dalinar’s behavior was unacceptable does give some amount of credence to my claims his parenting style surely was not well though upon.
This being said, I also agree not much is shown in the books. As such, I will retain my initial position: I do think Brandon’s intentions were to show Dalinar’s bad parenting skills and how it had an impact on his sons. The flashback sequence had multiple purposes: the first one was obviously to tell the tale of what Dalinar asked the Nightwatcher and why, but the second one was to flesh out both his relationship with his wife and his sons, mostly Adolin. Thus, I think if Brandon wanted us to feel Dalinar was a good father, he’d have showed us… other scenes, but he didn’t.
I also think the sequels both boys carry which are easily traceable to their upbringing speak for themselves. Still, it’d be nice to ask a few additional questions to Brandon, to find out how he views it. This could be very enlightening.
On Elhokar: He is a relatively minor character and, as such, he isn’t getting a lot of coverage (unlike Dalinar). However, the one time a character had the opportunity to comment on his parenting style, it was to the negative. This being said, we do have a WoB which infers Aesudan has been travelling, on occasions, to the Shattered Pleins. Hence, Elhokar might not have been as absent as you’d expect and he certainly has not seen his son for the last three years. He did care to see him which is much more Dalinar can claim for. Warrior Dalinar didn’t care for neither Adolin nor Renarin.
On Adolin being a Fop: He plays with clothes because they allow him to express himself in ways he can’t otherwise. He grew up pretending he was someone he isn’t. He became an adult thinking he was someone he never was. The clothes, the fashion, the silliness, this was his way to cope, to externalize what he never realized he was feeling up until after he murdered Sadeas. He basically infers it in Part 4 when he tells Shallan a person’s choice of clothes can tell you a lot about this person.
@79 “Who am I to complain?
My life’s been spared so much pain
Born with all that I need
My comforts all guaranteed
So what’s the problem
What’s keeping me
From moving forward
It’s hard to see
I should be free now
I should be fine
But the life I fought for
Still isn’t mine
Some believe in fairy stories
And the ghosts that they can’t see
I know that I could do so much
If I could just believe in me
Mirror mirror
Tell me something
Can I stop my fall?”
A few lyrics from the beginning to Mirror Mirror Part Two a great song from the RWBY soundtrack (VOlume 3 in this case. I felt I had to share it as it felt like these particular lyrics (though not the whole song) might fit with Adolin.
P.S. let me know if you want more of the lyrics. I will P.M them to you. Or better yet send you a link to the song
Others may have argued that Dalinar wasn’t a terrible father. That’s not my argument. I agree that he was horrible. But judging by another father in this story by the name of Lin Davar, he could have been a much worse one. And judging by the way his sons turned out, I cannot say his behavior left them with much scar tissue. Yes the issues they do have can be traced back to Dalinar’s parental style i.e. absence even when present. Even Dalinar wonders why they don’t hate him. But even with that, I don’t see many Alethi elites doing all that much better. After all, Gavilar’s kids are arguably even more fucked up than their cousins and Galivar was both home and not an addict.
Side note: For those of you who are members of the Storm Cellar facebook group, we just got three new WoBs from Brandon, in celebration of reaching 1000 members. There’s a document added to the group where you can see what he said. One is a writing question, one a Stormlight question, and one a Mistborn question. I’ll post them here in a little while, but I want the facebook group to have a chance at it first.
@86: I honestly wouldn’t want Lin Davar to be the threshold by which we evaluate parental capacity… Abuse can take many forms and it isn’t rare for victims of it to fail to hate their aggressor. It isn’t rare to see them refuse to admit they were mistreated, instead preferring to love the one they should hate. Dalinar is right. His sons should hate him. He realizes he was a terrible father, even by Alethi standards and he cannot understand why his behavior didn’t generate hate.
Just like I have been wondering and I might have found an answer. I have seen it within two different TV series already: victims of abuse who refuse to be pictured as victims, who excuse their aggressors behavior (it is not his fault he beats me, his father beat him so he has a hard time getting rid of the habit, he loves me, I know he does), who claim it was their choice all along (I wanted to be gang raped, I wasn’t forced. I wanted to sleep with a 40 years old even if I was only 14). Of course, Adolin/Renarin did not live through this kind of abuse (I don’t mean to infer they were, those are just examples I recently saw of victims refusing to be victims, being blind to abuse they received: those are examples of behavior in front of mistreatment, not a claim what Adolin/Renarin went through readily compares), but neglect also counts. And both have an unhealthy view of their father, they see him as perfection reincarnated, a God, they blindly admire and love him despite having been neglected, despite having witness their father drink himself mad when THEY needed him to be their father. They were children. They had lost their mother and what did their father do? He drink because he hurt. How about them?
Hence, the fact Adolin/Renarin do not look as badly affected as Shallan merely testify of different personalities/contexe. Part of Shallan’s struggles with her past is she struggles to hate her parents, the compulsion to love is very strong and when someone you love hurt you so… She also never had someone praise the merit of her father to her, telling her how much of a great man he is. The difference also is neither boys believe their father harmed them in any visible way: they love him. Just as the girl loves her pimp, just as the boy loves his pedophile, they love a man who hasn’t been there for them, who abandoned them and didn’t care for them for most of his life. A lot of kids would hate Dalinar, but those two… they love him. Even Dalinar cannot understand why they do which is rather telling, IMHO.
Dalinar agrees he neglected his sons. He agrees he hasn’t been there for them. He agrees he rejected them because they made him think of Evi and he didn’t want to deal with this. He agrees he had been wrong to yell at them and he cannot fathom why they do not hate him for it. Dalinar recognizes he has been a bad father.
Also, as BenW puts it later, we can’t compare pains: just because Dalinar didn’t go as far a trying to kill one of his children doesn’t mean he was good father nor that his boys aren’t still carrying the scars of his abandonment. One thinks he is useless and the other one thinks he is worthless. I wouldn’t call either one of the boys “well-adapted” nor do I consider either one of them “turned out well”. Adolin admits, if we were to strip him of his name, his nobility, his wealth, he would be nothing. He thinks he is only worth as much as his family is worth within the Alethi society.
Adolin/Renarin just haven’t really started dealing with their issues and likely won’t until they stop refusing to admit their father isn’t Roshar’s seventh wonder.
On the matter of Jasnah/Elhokar, I don’t think we have enough information to trace back their “problems” to their “parents”. We have no idea what Jasnah’s struggles nor problems really are: we have a few dim clues . We can theorize Gavilar is at fault, but we don’t actually know. Also, while we do know part of Elhokar’s problems come from the fact he was king after a great king, none of this is easily traceable to Gavilar being a “bad parent” and we know Navani wasn’t a “bad mother”. I also do not think we have arguments to state Jasnah is more fucked up than Renarin…. She certainly seems “well-adjusted” too ;-) She certainly doesn’t seem to be struggling with much, but like Adolin, this too could be a front. We just didn’t get to read it yet.
With Adolin/Renarin, we know Dalinar is part of the reason they have the problems they now have. That’s where I am drawing the line: narrative tells me their issues were in part caused by Dalinar’s behavior. And Dalinar admits he has behaved badly with his sons.
@87: Yeah. Just as we can’t say a given individual is unworthy of being a Radiant because he didn’t suffer as much as Kaladin. Pain is relative and what breaks one man (or woman) will make another. All we can do is witness how our various characters react to what is thrown at them and see if this is a problem or not.
@88: I’m curious about the Stormlight question :-)
I do not think their will be a complete rift (no pun intended) between Adolin and Dalinar after Adolin learns the truth of Dalinar’s past (when Dalinar publishes Oathbringer). Perhaps Adolin will be initially upset. However, I believe Shallan will be their to help Adolin deal with any fallout he feels from the knowledge. With Shallan’s help, Adolin will forgive Dalinar. Shallan will do for Adolin what she did for her brothers trying to help bring the light to them in the darkness that was Lin Davar.
Also, as Brandon has said their will be the passage of about 1 year between the end of OB and the start of Book Four (in the context of the story — not the time between publishing of the 2 books), any troubles between Adolin and Dalinar due to the truth coming out may be addressed in the in-between time. Thus, Adolin and Renerin’s reactions and dealing with the truth may not be part of Book 4.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@Gepeto, I’m by no means excusing Dalinar for ordering an atrocity. In fact, I said so. I was just saying the official story isn’t a total lie. It’s just a distortion.
You do see that Sadeas is a thorough psychopath, though. He never feels even the least scruple there.
I was not in any way trying to trivialize anyone’s pain. I have gone out of my way I felt to acknowledge the issues each of the Kholin boys have and accredit them to a father who was absent and disinterested in their youth and an alcoholic during their adolescence. But we have been inside these guys’ heads, Adolin more than Renarin but we’ve seen behind the curtain somewhat. Judging from my views on the narrative I read a couple kids somewhat damaged from childhood trauma but not enough to engage in destructive behavior. Their mental health falls well within the range of normal. When I say that they are well adjusted, I do not mean that they don’t have some problems nor am I being dismissive of the things I have seen from them. But one must admit that they are in a better place mentally than say Shallan or Szeth. We’ve been in Jasnah’s head briefly as well and there is true dissonance between how she is perceived from the outside and her internal dialogue listing her insecurities.
Crack anyone open and you will see problems, issues, unresolved trauma ect. Growing up sucks especially when your nurturing environment isn’t ideal. This is why in RL people who aren’t ‘crazy’ can still benefit from therapy. Highlighting Adolin’s and Renarin’s trauma seems like an overreaction based on what I’ve seen from the evidence presented but feel free to disagree.
I’ve stated in multiple posts that Dalinar was a sub par parent. But I brought up Lin Davar for perspective. While Dalinar did his progeny no favors he did not actively abuse his children. Yes negligence counts as abuse but there’s a difference between the Kholin and the Davar household. You cannot qualify someone’s pain but tell me which household would you choose to grow up in? I hope we get to see more Alethi upper Dahn family dynamics. Because it looks to me like the Kholins are typical and what counts for decent parenting in their world. Not great, not exceptional, but within normal tolerances despite Dalinar’s self-destruction. But I could be wrong.
@92 Also Brandon said that if you were to reveal a little about Renarin you would have to reveal a lot. Same kind of thing with Jasnah. That’s WHY he limits their viewpoints.
“Everyone is entitled to their own sorrow, for the heart has no metrics or forms of measure. And all of it… irreplaceable.”
@90: It is hard to predict a complete rift in between Dalinar/Adolin even though I must admit I have been hoping to read one. Not a permanent rift, but say a temporary one mostly because I have always believed it would end up being a positive venture for both of their characters, not to forget being a narrative arc I would enjoy reading. Hence, of course, I will keep on rooting for this :-)
This being said, Brandon did warn us things would happen during the time gap and some readers might not be happy about them. He seems very aware the choice he is making here will not please everyone of his readers. Is this one of those things? Maybe, but I do not find it the most likely. Dalinar isn’t going to write his books within a few weeks: he can barely write. One year time to finish writing his autobiography seems a reasonable time frame for a man who just learned literacy to finish summing up 30 years of butchery. Or so I am thinking.
More importantly, we have to wonder at what is the most probable reaction for the involved characters. After WoR, I predicted Adolin’s inability to lie would surpassed his fear of admitting his wrongs to his father. I was wrong: Adolin has less honor than I thought he did (and this turned out being his main inner issue: the fact he isn’t as honorable as his father). After OB, I predict too much of Adolin’s inner monologue has been built around Dalinar for the revelation not to matter. He thinks his father is a God and he is the unworthy one. Finding out your life-long hero never was the hero your mother told you about, but instead a monster who killed her can’t not stir a reaction.
So upset doesn’t seem like the right word. Crushed would probably be more appropriate: Adolin is about to get a revelation which will shatter how he has always think of his father. Whether it happens during the one-year gap or not, I do think this should change something in how Dalinar/Adolin inter-act one with another.
@91: And I agree with you. The official story is a lie which is why it is warranted to wonder how the truth will be received. It may or may not be a plot point within the next book, but I would love if it were, especially given the fact Brandon deemed interesting to have us know what Adolin thinks of it, exactly.
And yes, I agree Sadeas deserves every negative terms associated to him, though psychopath is not one I would use, still, let’s not argue on semantics. He’s a bad person. He as probably happy to watch the Rift burn. He had no trouble sleeping the following night, but the fact remains Dalinar did order him to make sure no one escaped. That’s why I can’t back the argumentation stating: “Dalinar wanted to stop it, but couldn’t because of Sadeas” as I find it doesn’t address the fact Sadeas only did what Dalinar ordered him to do. Sure, kudos for Dalinar for changing his mind, but is he wanted some leeway, then he should not have given those orders. His initial plans were to kill every living soul. I cannot deny nor ignore this.
He’s still responsible. Sadeas still is gloating through the whole thing. Dalinar didn’t gloat but the Rift happened solely because he ordered it. Blaming Sadeas seems wrong, but perhaps if Dalinar wants to preserve the admiration his sons have for him, he could present the events as Sadeas preventing him to stop it. I guess he could, but I feel Dalinar has grown too much not to take the full blame.
@92: I guess we all react to the narrative in different manner. You said you found the one Jasnah’s chapter spoke of a great dissonance in between how she is perceived and how she is thinking. I found Adolin’s numerous viewpoints spoke of a greater dissonance: he plainly has no idea who he is while Jasnah certainly knows who she is, she just isn’t sharing everything with everyone. So I guess narrative speaks differently to every reader, I obviously love Adolin, hence clearly I am very sensitive to his inner thoughts.
I personally feel SA is, on average, trying to dismiss Adolin/Renarin’s trauma (or maybe it isn’t and we just haven’t read enough of it yet) which is likely why I react by emphasizing it. After all, OB was written almost solely from Dalinar’s perspective and part of the intend has been for readers to sympathize with his pains. I spoke of how I, as a reader, ended up feeling more sympathy for his sons than for him.
I respect your position and I have admitted we didn’t have a lot of data to base ourselves on. I however retain my initial positions: the clues the narrative did allow to slip spoke of Dalinar being a far worst parent than what is expected. I doubt most Alethi fathers were drunk who never saw their children nor bother to remember their names. Even before reading OB, I felt there was something off within the Dalinar/Adolin relationship, less so with Renarin, but still. There is a distance here I wouldn’t expect out of a loving family and now, I would argue, what I felt merely is the fact the boys never were one of Dalinar’s priorities. They still aren’t and they likely never will be. As a parent, that’s something I definitely struggle with, but I do not expect all readers to struggle as much as I am.
I wouldn’t choose any of those households to grow up within. I consider them both horrible though not for the same reasons. I honestly do not find Dalinar fared much better than Lin Davar. Sure, Lin put Shallan in a golden cage, but Dalinar downright contempt for Adolin seems equally bad, at least from my perspective. The only step Dalinar has not made was to be physically violent with his sons which is something Lin only does towards the very end. Who knows if Dalinar might not have slipped this far had he gotten so much support from his family?
If I had to pick a family, I’d pick Kaladin’s family. They, at least, seem to genuinely love each other for good reasons.
This being said, I too, could be wrong. It may be Brandon isn’t seeing as negative as I am. Only he can answer this though I suspect his answers would be: “There are more than one way to analyse Dalinar’s parental skills given the narrative at hand and, right now, I like the fact the readers are talking about it”.
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@90 – maybe you have more confidence in Shallan than I do, but I don’t feel Shallan was in the right headspace to help Adolin with anything, at least at the end of OB. If anything, Veil and Radiant might make things worse.
I see Adolin trying to help Shallan with her issues – her family’s arrival to Urithiru, Ghostbloods, the personas etc – and squashing down his own issues regarding Dalinar, and it festering inside him and making any rift even worse.
If the one year gap is true, it’ll be interesting how Sanderson implies what went down in that time frame.
@99: I see Shallan and Adolin helping each other. Already their stories mirror one another. I expect they will keep on mirroring each other within book 4.
#99, @Gaz: your implicit assumption is that a mentally-ill person can’t help other people.
This is incorrect.
Also, you’re ignoring the fact that Shallan is actually improving at the end of Oathbringer, though in the chapter we’re theoretically rereading this week she’s still getting worse.
There’s also the fact that she’s going to resume her place as Jasnah’s ward. I HOPE that will her figure out how to deal with the ghostbloods as it seems Jasnah has some first hand experience in dealing with them.
@77 Carl
If it is about orphans, it’s not the only popular story with that angle.
“You’re an orphan? Of course, I’m an orphan. God, I wish there was a war then we’d show we’re worth more than anyone bargained for.”
@102: Well, I do wonder how Shallan being both the Kholin Highlady and Queen Jasnah’s ward as well as one of the few Radiants will play out. If I am to hazard a guess, her work as the Kholin Highlady will not get the priority.
This being said, I agree with @101: she is getting better. I do not expect to slip backwards, not two books in a row. In fact, I expect one character out of Dalinar or Shallan will get bump down to tertiary character within book 4. Or Brandon will have three secondary characters with less page time each.
So…. those promised WoBs! We gave Brandon a list of eight questions, asking him to pick three of them to answer without RAFOs. Here are the ones he chose:
1. If you have a child that can’t stop making up/writing stories and never wants to sleep at night, what is the best way to encourage them without letting them be nocturnal? (Child in question is about 13.)
2. Do squires always bond the spren of their Knight’s order? Or can they attract a different type of spren?
Also, was it normal for someone to serve their whole life as a squire?
3. We know snapping is not the same in MIstborn Era 2. We know Wayne knew he was a slider, but could not afford bendalloy for his early life. How do the poor skaa know they can burn rare metals? Is there a ceremony, or a formal process of testing skaas for metal powers? (The assumption is that nobles can just give their children a mix of metals to see if any of them are reactive.)
@64 EvilMonkey
I feel just because Dalinar is writing the book Oathbringer, that Adolin and Renarin will not have to find out from reading it. I think after everything with naming Jasnah Queen calms down, Dalinar will have sat Adolin and Renarin down and talked to them heart to heart. Given the immediacy of this action, it would mean it would occur during the 1 year time hop. I think there will be upset but understanding and supportive Renarin will be the bridge between Dalinar and Adolin keeping the family together. This will mean when we pick up at book 4, although Dalinar’s and Adolin’s relationship will be different, I do not feel they will be at odds.
@68 aggie1
I don’t know. Couple not only Odium’s influence with the information that the Heralds, representatives of your god lied to you, and your actual god is dead, and I think the Vorin church will either need to update, or become a thing of the past leaving disenfranchised and bitter people.
@76 birgit
There is the whole issue where Odium is leading an army to wipe out humans. A good chunk of humans may still jump ship to Odium like Amaram and Moash did but I could see quite a few sticking it out because of their family and loved ones.
@82 Wetlandernw
Very true. What is also interesting is Szeth was able to train on the Honorblades before he was named Truthless. So that makes one wonder if the Shin culture treated the Honorblades as exceptions to the rule regarding wielding blades.
@95 BenW
That’s what makes me chomp at the bit to get more Renarin and Jasnah! What little we see says so much, and there is so much more to know!
@99 Gaz
I think Shallan needs to do what Hoid and Jasnah have been saying. Take time for herself. Learn about herself separate from everyone else and confront herself. Her trip to Kholinar with the beggars though hard on her, did help her take a step in the right direction. She has a long hard road ahead of her.
@102 BenW
The impression I got from Jasnah and Shallan regarding Kholinar was that Jasnah would be stepping back from Shallan to give her more space to learn about herself. So I do not believe Jasnah will be enforcing the wardship during her Queenhood.
@105 Wetlandernw
Great WoBs! It goes to show spren bonding is a supremely individualistic experience on the part of the person and the spren. You could be in the right place, at the right time, around the right people, and still remain a squire. You could be surrounded by all of one type of spren, and still end up a completely different knight radiant.
My first thought was also that ‘the seas’ were Patji.
The religion angle is interesting – to some extent, in Christian theology, Jesus does ‘sacrifice’ for us, and so this could be seen as a very twisted and bizarre take on that theology (in fact, some way out there fundamentalists do have that ‘once saved, always saved’ kind of mentality that is used to excuse a number of things). But honestly, as a religious person myself, who also is somewhat familiar with history, their system (and the mental justifications) do feel familiar. Even in my own faith (Catholic) we have things such as indulgences – which, are NOT exactly what post-Reformation knowledge makes them out to be in terms of ‘buying salvation’ but were certainly abused. We also have the concept of praying for souls in purgatory although that’s a mercy (and souls in purgatory are already going to heaven but just undergoing purification – which is a controversial idea for the fundamentalist sects who believe Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient and we have no role in it). The ironic thing for me about religion is that most religions do tend to have an element of sacrifice, humility, etc – but once a religion becomes the dominant religion, it then becomes associated with trappings of power and status and all that entails.
This whole conversation took a turn! First of all, I’m glad several people called out the insulting and offensive ‘like a girl’ language. Anyway – Adolin isn’t on my list of top favorites, and I did him a little fluffy for my tastes especially in the first book. So I can understand that he is not to everybody’s taste. And I think Dalinar’s parenting was probably more or less in line with what is expected, culturally (which doesn’t make it less detrimental) – although I think being blackout drunk in the presence of your kids is much different than just being unavailable. Overall though, I think they both seem to be a bit more well adjusted than Shallan (obviously) or even Kaladin.
As others have pointed out, even if they have some advantages, losing your mother, and dealing with the emotional fallout of having to ‘manage’ a drunk parent is going to take its toll. And I’ve never seen Renarin as a whiner – he’s dealing with an illness nobody understands and is trying to find his place. It doesn’t matter how much money you have, nothing can solve that feeling of being shunted around and unwanted.
As for Dalinar, you seem oddly invested in absolving him of ALL responsibility – everything is Evi’s fault, Adolin’s fault, Odium’s fault, he has a mental illness, etc. When in fact the whole point of his arc is him taking responsibility for his actions. Circumstances matter, but it is still a person’s responsibility to deal with those circumstances. We are dealing with some extenuating factors in our lives. I’m sorry you’ve gone through your own hardships, but you don’t get to use that to minimize what others go through.
I can definitely relate to some of the fatigue that comes from reading through the reread comments – hence why I’m often so behind in commenting…I don’t always have time during the week to sit and read the article (and the comments) so I end up getting more and more behind and then have to try to catch up on several weeks at once over a weekend :) I’m also glad we’re moving back to one chapter a week, as it was getting kind of intense. I’m definitely nowhere near a Cosmere scholar and feel like I have to keep looking stuff up (or asking) about things others remember. There’s also parts of it I’m not interested in – so I’ve learned to just scroll by the comments that aren’t relevant. Even though I’m often a latecomer, I still enjoy being part of the discussions :)
@105: Great WoB! I especially enjoyed the one with respect to the squires as many readers have been asking themselves this very question. I would argue Oathbringer did give the impression being a squire automatically implied entering training for knighthood. It did seem as if most, if not all, of Bridge 4 would de-facto become Radiants in their own rights, a majority of them becoming Windunners. Some readers have express various levels of annoyment towards those implications which is why I am pleased to see them being refuted.
So being a squire does not imply one will become a Radiant, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I am good with this. I would theorize right here Drehy will choose to remain a squire: the one bit of insight we got on the character, late in OB, did speak of a man who’d rather follow someone else’s lead than calling the shots.
@108: In many ways, readers liking/disliking a character can have for habit of either unduly praise him or unfairly critisize him.
This is something I realize I am battling with myself. This week, I took an opportunity to open-up discussion as to why I failed to see Dalinar within the same glorious light as other readers. And yeah, the lack of in-world objective critics of the individual did bother me, but I would now add the incessant praises probably played a role. Therefore, as you pointed out, reading commentaries on how Dalinar is not responsible for his own actions, is a genuiney good person, compassionate and caring who only does horribly things because the Thrill is controlling him or Evi is failling to understand this great man she married might have had for effect of having me argue for the opposite.
I do agree Oathbringer’s narrative was rather clear on the matter: Dalinar blames no one besides himself. He does acknowledge he always had a choice and if the Thrill did influence him, he had the capacity to reject it. He could have become a better person much sooner, he needed not burning the Rift for this to happen, but he chose not to. To me, this is the core of his character: a man who spent a lifetime being the worst possible human being up until he decides this is enough and now is the time to grow. Sadly, I will always reflect on the human cost required for Dalinar to be able to make those decisions which is why I am unlikely to ever see him within the same positive light as other readers.
And this is perfectly fine. Different characters speak to different readers in a different manner which is why some readers will dislike Adolin while I will dislike Dalinar. All we can do is try to achieve better commentaries, to try to be as fair as possible even for a character we don’t like all that much. This is a lesson worth for everyone, including myself, especially myself.
Not everyone will buy into my interpretation of Dalinar’s parenting: I never expected most would. I however remain on my initial argumentation for all of the reasons I mentioned in my other posts. If OB’s narrative was in part about Dalinar taking ownership of his actions, it also was about fleshing out the man he once was and this man, he was not a good father. He was not averaged nor “typical”. He was awful. Yes, he is much better now, but as a reader, I tend to note a coldness in between Dalinar and Adolin, like something is not working here. Just as something is probably not working with Renarin as well, but it is less obvious within the main narrative.
I know many readers aren’t reading the same, that’s OK. We’ll all see where this is going within book 4.
On Kaladin not being “well-adjusted”: Kaladin has problems, this is undeniable, but none of them come from his parenting. Lirin and Hesina were good parents with their strengths and their weaknesses, but it is undeniable, to me at least, they loved Kaladin very much and he is aware of this. Worst, he thought they would have stopped loving him after Tien died: what a shock it must have been to see they not only still love him, they do not care why he was made a slave! All they care is he is safe. And back home. So while Kaladin’s tale is a tale of many things, I don’t think it is one of “bad parenting”.
One small thing I mean to comment on: people in this thread have talked of Dalinar’s style as typical of “Alethi” parenting. Even if you accept the premise I think it’s stated badly. It could conceivably be typical of Second Dahn Lighteyes Alethi parenting. Most Alethi by numbers are low-nahn darkeyes, who can’t afford servants to raise their kids. For that matter lighteyed tenners also work for a living and can’t employ nannies.
Kaladin had a relatively privileged upbringing. Potential spoiler that even Kaladin doesn’t know:
Hesina and therefore Kaladin have lighteyes ancestry.
However, even Second Dahn Kaladin’s parents couldn’t just palm him off on servants.
EvilMonkey @61:
Or, sending children home wasn’t limited to nobility among British Colonials, it was very much a middle-class thing to do for parents to send their – sometimes very young, children back to Britain to be raised there. Like, for instance, the parents of of Rudyard Kipling did with him and his sister at ages 5 and 3(!). Not that it wasn’t damaging, but many parts of India were considered to be (and probably were) dangerous to children’s health, among other things. I’d expect the same kind of thing from light-eyed soldiers and officers among the Alethi. And yes, some would have brought their children to the Shattered Plains during the 6 years, but stuff like wardships and apprenticeships for the older kids back home, as well as perceived greater safety among the extended family back home would have prevented them in many cases. Not to forget marriages of adult children, etc. So, I really hope that this will come up in book 4.
And yes, it was definitely better for Dalinar’s boys to grow up with extended family, mentors, etc., even with Dalinar’s negligence and drunkness, than for poor Davars locked in their claustrophobic nightmare and cut off from any external support. Though, I don’t understand why Jushu didn’t continue to learn swordsmanship and enlist as soon as he could – of all of them, Lin would have let _him_ go. I also think that Lin was already physically abusing his sons by the time Shallan was 13 and the twins 15.
Re: Vorinism, I think that it could adapt by claiming that all of this was a test and that they could resurrect/cause the Almighty to return if they were true to him. Some of Kabsal’s theological arguments would lend themselves to such an interpretation. And it is likely even true, “from a certain point of view” ;). The lighteyes/darkeyes divide would have to go, of course – but since the cause of lighteyedness has become more or less known, I don’t think that they are going to resist it too hard.
Oh, and the ardents _did_ warn warriors against succumbing to the Thrill and preached about going into battle while maintaining dispassion, as Dalinar notes in his first flashback in OB, IIRC. So, presumably, at least some of their teachings are rooted in the forgotten wisdom of the old Radiants, and others, like drive to excel in a given Calling, can be quite be usefully adapted in service of survival during a Desolation.
Speaking of Elhokar – I do very much wonder how he ended up the person he was, which is why I badly wanted to have a chapter from his PoV in OB. Though, skimming the first chapter where the Kholins appeared in WoK I wonder if Sadeas didn’t contribute to the king’s ineptness. I mean, even before her went full Sith, dear Torol wanted to be a power behind the throne and you can’t really do it with a competent king. So, when he told Dalinar that he had tried to explain to his nephew how under-the-table deals like the one with Vamah worked and Elhokar was not interested, knowning what we know now, it is more than likely that Sadeas just plain lied about it.
Scath – unfortunately I can’t currently provide you with precise quotes of ret-cons between WoK and OB, as I don’t have an easily searchable WoK and I am not up to looking for them in a paperback. I know that when I re-read WoK and WoR after OB early this year I noticed a number of them, which I mention in discussion of Chapter 49. I could come up with some terms to search for which would probably turn up what I am talking about in an e-copy.
Wetlandernw @105:
Great WoBs! I am so relieved that becoming a squire of a certain Knight doesn’t lock one into their Order. And while it is only common sense that all Windrunner squires couldn’t have expected to become knights eventually, due to their sheer numbers, if nothing else, it is nice to have that confirmed.
I am convinced that we’ll see a number of different Orders represented among the Bridge Four – Elsecaller for Sigzil, Stoneward or perhaps even Bondsmith for Rock – though, personally, I think that one of the Bondsmiths needs to be a Listener and one needs to be female, so IMHO it is less likely, etc. And some will just remain Kaladin’s support team.
I like the answer about testing for Metalborn abilities – though isn’t it odd that Wayne didn’t get any good offers if his allomancy was discovered in such a way? Given it’s usefulness, you’d think that it would be considered valuable. Also, you’d think that powerful merchant houses would be more methodical in looking for such talents.
111 Isilel
I think the battles we see of the past, vs the shattered plains are two different matters. On the Shattered Plains the Parshendi have not made any attacks on the warcamps in years. All the battles take place on the plateaus so the warcamps themselves are secure to have families. Secondly it has become the new capital of the Alethkar empire so as we have seen with the nobility even down to the darkeyes, families are allowed to join them in the warcamps. All the heads of the country are there, if you want anything done, you better be there too. So I feel based on the information we get, the Shattered Plains is far more populated with families than any battle in the past. In the past heads of state were still centralized at their capitals. In the past the battles were contentious and you didn’t know when your camp might be assaulted making it dangerous for children. In the past the army had to be on the move, so bringing along families would needlessly slow down the war machine, and complicate maneuvers. None of this is an issue at the Shattered Plains. That is why I believe so many families are located there with the soldiers.
The problem is, the Heralds, the voices of their god in Vorinism have just been shown to have lied. On top of that it has been discovered they are quite mad. Kind of hard to still back up your deity if its representatives are so suspect.
Sadeas is most definitely a part of why Elhokar was an inept king. Sadeas wanted to keep the King weak and dependent on him, while he keeps the Highprinces against each other, thus securing his power.
The search terms would be appreciated. Sanderson has done such a wonderful job keeping track of everything, far more than any other author I know, so I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt and try to understand his choices first before assuming a mistake was made. So I would like to cross reference. Then if there are mistakes, you could post them to the 17th shard for Peter to then send to their continuity expert. Then going forward I am sure such mistakes will be rectified.
I think the reason why Wayne didn’t get any good offers is that bendalloy is so hideously expensive that it wouldn’t compensate for the utility. True you could have Wayne stand around burning bendalloy to help your workers accomplish tasks faster, but if the wage you are paying Wayne coupled with the cost of supplying bendalloy outweighs the increase of production, it does not sound very lucrative to me.
@111 and 112 re: Wayne
Another factor is that he grew up in the Roughs, an economically depressed area where few merchant houses would be actively testing for talent. It’s much more likely that he’d be recruited by criminal organizations. In fact, seeing as how the dynamic duo actually met, I’m betting that’s exactly what happened.
Scath @40 “I like how Brandon juxtaposed Dalinar’s two extremes, but at the same time gave us tastes of what lied beneath (his goodness under his ferocity when young, his rage under his honor when he is old).”
that was really well said.
@114 Bellaberry
Thank you :)
There is a new WoB which came in yesterday I believe is relevant to the discussion we had this week. Here it is:
So Brandon confirms it is reasonable to expect Adolin among all people to react negatively to the truth about how Evi died. He also confirms Dalinar has written this truth within his book.
He also confirms it is reasonable to expect Dalinar’s saying he could forgive Adolin perhaps isn’t the end of it. In other words, it is easy to say he wants to forgive him, it is harder to actually do it.
Of course, none of this means we are going to read those ramifications within the next book, but my interpretation is currently assuming the truth will matter to Adolin and he won’t take it positively is a reasonable stance to have.